Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#961

Post by cmontella » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

russdpale wrote: post #875

cmontella wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a roboticist at the beginning of my career working on drones, I decided then and there that I would never make "bombs", a metaphor I used to mean anything that could be weaponized. I realized a lot of the work I was doing was funded by DARPA, and I was very cognizant about my research being used in this way. And like Dr. Kearns suggests, it's not entirely black and white. Would my path planning algorithm be used t…

Ah man, as a former straight leg grunt (meaning no plane, usually no helo or even a truck, we walk _everywhere_) anything that can take weight off is an absolute God send. We aren't blood thirsty but you would be saving a ton of knees, backs, frustration, and pain all around.

Yeah, no doubt that tech will help you. But the line from a robot carrying your guns to a robot wielding your guns is a little too direct for me.to work on personally. It's not that I think you are bloodthirsty. I think the people you work for are.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#962

Post by mmirate » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

Tepix wrote: post #457

nyxtom wrote: post #75

I for one would rather have a drone strike program that actually actively avoids civilian casualties as much as possible. There are certainly gray areas here as far as the use of that program from a political standpoint (whether the strikes are warranted or whether it is part of regime changes). On the other hand, by not helping the military become more efficient we also risk losing existing lives (our own and civili…

You must love those weapons from the Slaughterbots video then https://youtu.be/9CO6M2HsoIA Do you also love the other implications?

Yes and thoroughly yes. Because our military's allegiance is to the Constitution not to any single executive administration; because the military have far more resources to purchase bots or counterbots than the police do; and because only an idiot would actually have that tech and yet fail to also have, at minimum, an equally-maneuverable ablative countermeasure drone.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#963

Post by grangerize » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

I do not think that this is a simple black and white separation,but rather a dialectical one.

I used to find myself most of the times confused while using technologies whose CEOs, mission I do not agree with. It felt as if I was contradicting myself. But then I realized the dialectical nature of this relationship which is if you want to create something better, improve something it is only natural that you will do so using the existing tools available in your world.

A great example is Facebook. There are things you might not agree with, you might hate it but if you look closer you will see volunteer groups to political campaigns to marches and protests which are organized only via Facebook. One of such political activities one day could as well change Facebook or the world we live in drastically.

You can apply this to other cases. You might have an anti-capitalist philosophy podcast hosted on Amazon or Spotify or Apple which in essence contradicts the very existence of such companies. But in the end you are using them to deliver your message, cause change etc.

I am curious about what others think about this and how they feel about looking at it from a dialectical point of view as I am continuously thinking about this and still forming my thoughts.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#964

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

From the Wikipedia article on Robert Kearns https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns

>Kearns was a member of the Office of Strategic Services, the forerunner of the U.S. CIA, during World War II.[1][2][3]

Somehow I don't think that Kearns would have had an issue with wriing software to analyze video footage for the military.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#965

Post by zentiggr » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 7:12 PM UTC

jsilence wrote: post #847

colordrops wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost any technology can be weaponized. It's not about the particular technology you work on, but who it's being built for and the intended application.

please help me understand how a substance that turns sand into soil, developed to green the deserts, can be used as a weapon. To me this argument that "anything can be used in evil ways" is a poor excuse used to distract from the issue.

To badly misquote Richlieu,

"Give me six ideas from the most ethical of engineers, and I'll find something in them to weaponize."

Any primary research can be used for any range of good or evil... the task is to curtail the creators of evil uses.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#966

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 7:22 PM UTC

shemnon42 wrote: post #326

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #8

Oh boy. Being on the inside of Maven, I can't tell you how confused these Googlers are.

R.I.P. your TS/SCI clearance. Identifying yourself as part of any project on the internet is quite possibly the #1 no-no, certainly the #1 internet no-no. In fact, this makes me wonder if you really know anything at all.

[deleted]

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#967

Post by supertrope » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

kevinmchugh wrote: post #942

reacweb wrote: post #889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all the engineers who have a sense of ethic refuse to work for military projects, it implies that military projects will be performed by less ethical than average people. It is frightening. IMHO, avoiding military projects because of ethic is counterproductive.

Richard Gatling thought his most famous invention would cause wars to be shorter and less brutal. More deaths faster would mean faster surrenders, he thought. He is a weapons inventor who thought he was doing something ethical. Instead, he made war and death cheaper. He made it more likely. In his lifetime, machine guns were deployed asymmetrically, making it cheaper for colonial empires to kill large numbers of the…

Alfred Nobel thought so too with dynamite.

"Perhaps my factories will put an end to war sooner than your congresses: on the day that two army corps can mutually annihilate each other in a second, all civilised nations will surely recoil with horror and disband their troops."

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#968

Post by supertrope » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #927

cmontella wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a roboticist at the beginning of my career working on drones, I decided then and there that I would never make "bombs", a metaphor I used to mean anything that could be weaponized. I realized a lot of the work I was doing was funded by DARPA, and I was very cognizant about my research being used in this way. And like Dr. Kearns suggests, it's not entirely black and white. Would my path planning algorithm be used t…

Perhaps we need a license that excludes use of a technology for certain purposes (?)

Like the patent licensing terms for using AES-OCB?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#969

Post by aoki » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

notburnt wrote: post #341

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #8

Oh boy. Being on the inside of Maven, I can't tell you how confused these Googlers are.

I call bullshit. The fact that you are outing yourself (now and in your HN profile) is very unlike any other "spook" I know. It's laughable that you say your " background is all out there for people to see".

it appears from linkedin that he was an AF intelligence officer.

being a military intelligence officer is not the same as, say, being a clandestine service officer. apparently, the AF even sees fit to give you "intelligence wings" to wear on your chest. there appear to be an awful lot of current and former intelligence officers who list their specialty and former duty stations in linkedin.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#970

Post by supertrope » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

ionised wrote: post #945

jstanley wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If soldiers hate war so much why do they join up?

Predatory sign-up practices in low-income neighbourhoods, and a systemic and relentless propaganda campaign starting in nursery school that instils jingoist rhetoric and military worship.

To play devil's advocate, we (USA) have a volunteer military. Even if you think it's a "poverty draft" driven by structural unemployment and dearth of opportunities in left behind cities and rural areas it's still not conscription.

How should the military fill its ranks? Would you rather have a lottery?