Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#771

Post by rebuilder » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:07 AM UTC

Natsu wrote: post #582

rebuilder wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't think of a single right that exists inherently. Where does such a right originate? For every right that most people hold evident, you'll find people who disagree. This is why rights are codified in laws and agreements.

> I can't think of a single right that exists inherently. Where does such a right originate? From our own human nature, actually. Think about this for a minute. Would a normal person be willing to believe something because you were forced to? If someone was violently attacked, would they not fight back? By recognizing these aspects of human nature as something fundamentally not controllable by laws, we can instead fo…

If there are natural human rights, what does that mean for, e.g., prisoners? Is the right to personal freedom not a natural right? If it is, can natural rights be taken away? Under what conditions? Or is imprisonment a breach of natural rights, and what does that imply?

It's pretty hard to pin down what natural rights are. That a society ought to consider the limits of normal human behaviour I don't dispute, but that just informs the rights a society grants its members. Rights are still a human social construct.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by drtz » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:07 AM UTC

abalone wrote: post #195

I completely support the employees but it is criminal that this NYT article does not mention the extensive roots of Silicon Valley in Pentagon funding. SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending. Just recently in the AI space: - Siri was spun out of a Pentagon project -- look up SRI International and CALO. Its purpose: a "soldier’s servant".[1] - Autonomous driving is a direct evolution of Pentago…

Nazis gave us Volkswagen. I don't have to support Nazis to own a Porsche in 2018.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#773

Post by pfarnsworth » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:08 AM UTC

confounded wrote: post #763

djrogers wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain the mechanics of that happening? It's simple - unions can force you to join, take your money, and give it to political causes you don't support. And if you're in the minority, you don't have any say in it. See Abood v. Detroit Board of Education and several more recent cases (Friedrichs v. CTA, Janus v AFSCME). Picture this - if you were a minority opinion holder in a Google Union, and the majority…

Sure, but by definition most employees will be in the majority on most employee issues. Few things are perfect, many things are useful. If your stance is consistently counter to that of other Google employees, then you probably have bigger problems with working at Google than the existence of a union. Being in a union doesn’t preclude you from shopping around; if working on drone assasinations is personally important…

You're missing the point. What if the Google union decides to put their weight behind Trump, because he gives tax incentives to search engine companies? And if you're vehemently against Trump and his policies, then where does that leave you? Your tax dues are now being spent on supporting a political campaign that you firmly don't support.

And that's the point. Unions are nothing but friction, especially for industries such as tech. I bet the employees of Google can self-organize much more efficiently without a union than with a union, and will be much more effective as well.

And as I mention below, Silicon Valley is awash with employee wealth. How exactly could unions have made things better for employees than what has already been accomplished without the help of a single union?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#774

Post by pfarnsworth » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:12 AM UTC

zorpner wrote: post #553

pfarnsworth wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm making almost $400,000 total compensation and I'm happily working on things that I love. I don't need a union to tax me and force me to pay dues to do absolutely nothing that will benefit me, besides pay themselves well. On top of that, having a union start representing itself as a political force will definitely upset me. I may be against the militarization of Google, but what if I weren't? What if I supported i…

You have already taken a political stance -- that the common welfare of the labor force is of no concern to you.

There is no proof that unions actually contribute to the common welfare for a labor force such as tech. In fact, it's the opposite. Silicon Valley has been doing so well and enriched so many people that everyone else believes that tech workers have changed cities such as San Francisco for the worse. This was accomplished without a single union in Silicon Valley. It doesn't exist and yet hundreds of thousands of employees around here are disproportionately better off than everyone else.

Can you please explain how unions would make things better? Would we be making even more money? Or would they simply enrich themselves from union dues and create friction in every single process that makes this area great?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#775

Post by jcoffland » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:13 AM UTC

I am against war and violence but even a cursory review of the last 10k years of human history make it abundantly clear that the threat Iran, North Korea or Russia pose to the Western World is real. I hate many of the things the US has done but I'm glad the world is not controlled by even worse actors. The sole reason for US and UN dominance is military power. If we ignore this the West will be overrun.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#776

Post by unclebucknasty » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:14 AM UTC

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

>incredibly valid for Silicon Valley engineers these days

If one could engineer a solution to save lives, but instead uses his/her talents to build the nth iteration of, say, a food delivery app, does he/she bear any ethical culpability?

Because it seems the bigger challenge for engineers is not avoiding overt evil, but in the opportunity cost of spending their time on work of significantly lesser consequence than their talents might allow.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#777

Post by ApolloFortyNine » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:14 AM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #621

ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How it's written I personally think you should be able to buy any weapon available on the open market. Or at least any weapon that could realistically be used by an infantryman (as the wording is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,." I'd rather have a new amendment then have judges be able to decide what the definition of arms is. Slippery slope. They really could one day decid…

Broadly speaking, that's been the holding of the courts since 1939. U.S. v. Miller loosely established the test (later solidified in 2008's Heller v DC) that weapons commonly used in militia service are inherently deserving of second amendment protections. Miller, a known mobster who was caught with a sawed off shotgun lost his case because a) the military testified that they had never used sawed off shotguns, so the…

You say solidified, but it was a 5-4 ruling. To determine if handguns could be banned by the city. And an 'arm' that has been used by infantry forces for generations.

Which I find just insane. People say no one wants to take Americans guns rights away, but we were literally one vote from effectively doing so.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#778

Post by maroonblazer » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:15 AM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #754

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. Are you sure it's a good idea to become less influential on the world stage?

> The reason Rome was so influential was its military. Ditto for the US. I think people often have that twisted. A lot of the U.S.'s expansion is cultural, not military. That is to say: people liked what they were doing, and became a fan. Think: music, movies, and to some extent, literature, and now you might add software and consumer electronics to that list. And even when looking at Rome, can you imagine how much h…

Who can project force like the U.S. military? No one. For the most part it's used to enable people to have more say in how they're governed, modulo certain constraints. That's not to say we do it perfectly but we shouldn't underestimate how positively influential that military power is.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#779

Post by microcolonel » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:15 AM UTC

drtz wrote: post #768

microcolonel wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. Well, given how unimaginative a leap the national socialists took from the national fumigation program to the gas chambers, I doubt there was much more to it than "take bug poison room tech, use it on humans". There's no such thing as an "engineer" in the real world, and there's almost always somebody more unscrupulous, devout, or patriotic than…

> ... there's almost always somebody more unscrupulous, devout, or patriotic than you who knows or is willing to learn what it takes to finish the job ... If you believe that doing something is wrong, the idea that someone more unscrupulous will do it if you do not must not be used as an excuse for doing that thing yourself. Giving in to this notion will prove yourself to be the one who is unscrupulous.

> If you believe that doing something is wrong, the idea that someone more unscrupulous will do it if you do not must not be used as an excuse for doing that thing yourself.

By involving yourself, you gain the opportunity to do the right thing (for the given the circumstances). If quitting accomplishes the same thing as sabotage or internal lobbying, then by all means.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#780

Post by sundvor » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 3:18 AM UTC

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #757

betolink wrote: post #731

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

>"One man was responsible for helping save tens of thousands of lives. Another man helped kill millions." In the case of Fritz Haber, it's the same man who saved billions from hunger and killed millions by prolonging World War-I. Excellent article on the same - https://medium.com/the-mission/the-tragedy-of-fritz-haber-th... Sometimes, the decision isn't clear as black & white; especially when you mix nationalism & pa…

That was a thoroughly depressing read, but a most excellent one as such. Thanks.