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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

671–680 of 1001 posts

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#671

Where does one draw a line these days among the personal, the moral, the legal, and the political? The military application in question is legal and is approved by a duly elected government that supports it politically. In earlier days, employees generally would see this as just doing their jobs in developing technology that their employers wanted developed and would not concern themselves about ultimate uses and app…

Your discussion of "legality" here is U.S.-centric. Google has offices in Germany, France, Poland, Russia, Turkey, U.A.E., India, and China, to name a few. How would you feel if Google worked on military technology for those countries? Would you point out that it was inevitable that their militaries would seek ways to use A.I.? Would you point out that the Turkish armed forces' activities are permitted under Turkish law? Would you lament the inability of Google employees to separate work from politics?

Google has users in almost all countries, and even our friends in other liberal democracies do not see the U.S. military the same way we do. Perhaps some Google users' family members have even been killed by the U.S. military. This presents a perfectly reasonable business reason (one that has nothing to do with "the personal, the moral, the legal, and the political") for Google to turn down AI drone contracts.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can sue all they want. But they'll lose. A petition by 3000 employees (or, to be honest, 30) is enough to claim that it was in the company's interest to forgo this revenue to improve their standing among potential hires. Remember that tech companies live and die by the quality of their workforce. Moreover, the idea that companies always have to act according to strict profit motivations is a myth. Just look at t…

It isn't a myth that companies have to act due to strict profit motivations. It's law. The example you used on charitable causes, falls directly into marketing.

It's a law in Delaware, only. It is almost never litigated. You haven't addressed my point that any altruistic motive can be reframed as marketing and that therefore the law is largely meaningless.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with this. Trying to compare WWII to the actions of the modern military is absurd. How can you possibly compare it with overthrowing governments in South America and the Middle East, Vietnam, Guantanamo, Abu Gharib, drone strikes on hospitals, up to 200k civilians dead in Iraq, and much more - and of coursr the deeply, deeply questionable motives of all of these. The actions of our ancestors in WWI…

>drone strikes on hospitals, up to 200k civilians dead in Iraq You are looking at allied actions in WWII through rose colored glasses if you think that's worse. Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Berlin, Saint-Nazair... the allies engaged in total war. Civillians are part of the war making capability of a nation, and in WWII all sides considered them to be valid targets. In Saint-Nazair's case it wasn't even enemy…

I'd add Nanking, London, Warsaw, Auschwitz, Amsterdam, and Bataan to your list, and that's off the top of my head.

The British, U.S., USSR, Germans, Japanese, and Italians all practiced atrocities and mass warfare and/or genocide against civilian populations. I'm not challenging the credibility of your list, only the one-sidedness.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#674
post #206
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but I’m pretty sure the second amendment only applies to guns; you can’t walk around with an RPG on your shoulder.

It depends how you look at it. What was the purpose. Presumably after fighting in the Revolutionary War the goal was not to give people hunting privileges, they had something else in mind. From that point of view, maybe RPGs should be allowed, but so should attack helicopters, surveillance capabilities, private spy satellites, etc. > IANAL but I’m pretty sure the second amendment only applies to guns; you can’t walk…

This has always been my way of looking at the 2A. It's clearly intended to give citizens the rights and tools to fight wars, otherwise it wouldn't mention it along with militias. Thus, it does seem logical that it extends to armaments of war, such as knives, firearms, artillery, bombs, etc (perhaps even hacking tools).

I'm a gun owner myself, and I've (long ago) taken the stance that the 2A isn't really compatible with modern life, as the people who originally wrote it could not have anticipated the weapons militaries deploy today. It makes sense in my mind that it is Congress' responsibility to regulate what it reasonable weapons for civilized society.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#675

And this is why tech workers need to unionise. This petition is a weak statement that probably will have no effect. Unless these workers could pose a real threat to Google by threatening a strike action, Google has no need to change anything. Furthermore, if the workers really stood by their moral convictions, they'd use their collective power to tackle the issue more directly than by just appealing to Google. Compan…

> A union at Google could threaten to effectively halt all institutional operations of governments or other companies in order to influence their actions. But this seems an amoral thing to do, to me! A small group of unelected, unaccountable and non-diverse people abusing their relative power to try to force a democratically elected government or private company to do something? Why would anyone want that?

I'd love to live in a world where collective action by workers could be considered an abuse of power. The workers would be way better off in such a world.

It is completely insane and probably symptomatic of the extremely successful doublethink anti-union campaign by big business in the US to think organized workers could ever pose a larger threat to democracy than corporations you are grouping with the government as victims.

What a lot of people don't realize is that incorporation under US law is functionally franchising an elected government. The difference is that instead of the members of the business getting the votes the votes are called shares and are controlled by an oligarchy majority of shareholders.

The means by which the vast majority of businesses are run (with exception to many nonprofits, public benefit corporations, and coops) is what many would consider antithetical to how to run society fairly. And then people are surprised that such unaccountable undemocratic systems produce blatant corruption - except people don't even call it corruption despite it being a direct mapping to public corruption, they call it business as usual or meeting earnings expectations.

But no, the influence of THAT system of organization is fine - better, adored. Aspired towards. Workers trying to have more equal negotiations by working together though? Threat to democracy.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, _Schenck_ has largely been overturned on a number of occasions, but the following (untested) likely still holds as punishable (but not forbidden against through ante-hoc regulations): * _Falsely_ shouting fire * in a crowded theater * for the purpose of imminently inciting harm to others

That is obviously what is meant by the idiom - surely you are aware of that? How are you not being disingenuous on this point?

To be fair, the thing that is most oft intended by the idiom is "look, if the cherished first amendment can be restricted, then so too can the second amendment".

It isn't a law, and where I say "might" in my follow-up, it should not be confused with "is" or "will". There are no laws that forbid you from exclaiming fire in a theater. People think there are because Oliver Wendell Holmes made a clumsy aside while explaining a bad decision that has since been overturned.

Either way, the real point to this is that a punishment for negligent use of one's rights (e.g., falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater for the purposes of causing harm to others) is still not remotely the same as banning free exercise of that right, or converting that right into a privilege through licensure, as is being suggested as rational compromises for the second amendment, predicated on a clumsy and wrong-headed interpretation on the first.

We might all prefer it if you had to obtain a license to speak in a theater, on the grounds that yelling fire in one might prove too dangerous a responsibility for average citizens, but I think most of us would agree that it would violate the first amendment quite heinously. The only way to imagine that equivalent restrictions are less heinous when applied to the second amendment is if one takes the second amendment less seriously as a "real" right, or to imagine that such restrictions are common on the first amendment. It isn't less real a right, and such restrictions are not common on the first, despite misuse of the aforementioned idiom.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#677
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but I’m pretty sure the second amendment only applies to guns; you can’t walk around with an RPG on your shoulder.

There's a school of thought that the word "arms" in the Constitution might have referred mainly to sidearms, not to canons, catapults, warships, etc. The theory is that there were other words like "artillery" to describe larger weapons.

This school only makes sense if you throw out the entire section that mentions a well regulated militia. A militia would be expected to have artillery.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#678
post #141

It boggles my mind, with the current state of affairs, the number of people actively organizing to eliminate or curtail our fundamental human rights. It seems to me that 1st and 2nd amendment rights are both under particularly intense bombardment these days.

How do you think the 2nd amendment is under assault? If you look at the list of things our youth were marching for[1], it doesn't say anything about taking guns away. Just like you can't yell "fire" in a movie theater, you shouldn't be able to walk around with a rocket launcher or semi-automatic weapon. Also, there's no way in hell any group of citizens can fight the US army these days so it seems like a moot point.…

>you shouldn't be able to walk around with a rocket launcher or semi-automatic weapon

That's a ridiculous statement to many people. Most handguns are semi-automatic weapons and you will find little agreement from pro-2nd amendment people to eliminate both handguns and any rifles that aren't muzzle-loaders or bolt-action.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#679
post #141

It boggles my mind, with the current state of affairs, the number of people actively organizing to eliminate or curtail our fundamental human rights. It seems to me that 1st and 2nd amendment rights are both under particularly intense bombardment these days.

I'm not sure if you meant to imply that the 2nd amendment is a fundamental human right but if so I think that's a bit of a stretch. 'Fundamental rights' (under US law) I think is defensible as fundamental is treated as an alias for constitutional so guns are in. 'Fundamental human rights' to me implies broad and fundamental applicability, i.e. the UN declarations and covenants on human rights, which don't iterate gun…

Thinking of it as "guns" being a fundamental right is... kinda backwards.

And, for the record, I think that "because the Second Amendment" is a horrible and fantastically lazy argument for gun ownership.

Now, let us take a look at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Specifically, Article 3:

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

From this, I don't think it's a stretch to say that everyone has the right to protect the above -- within reason!

Everyone has an innate right to defend their life, liberty, and security of person. Without that, those rights are meaningless.

This is not the job of the police. You should definitely call them if you have the time! But they are under no obligation to protect you, or even to show up.

(Most people don't know that, by the way.)

When you encounter a threat to the above, you have the right to fight until that threat ends, with some leeway granted for the adrenaline dump of combat.

This is not an indiscriminate license to kill or even to engage in violence!

Even if you "feel threatened". You must be able to demonstrate that you acted in defense of life -- yours or another's -- in order to justify your use of force against an attacker.

Weapons are the means by which individuals use force.

Allowing for self-defense allows for the use of weapons.

There is no such thing as a "non-lethal" weapon.

Your hands and feet are natural, and lethal, weapons. More people die by these every year in the United States than by "assault weapons".

Clubs and knives? Definitely lethal. The difference between the winner and a loser in a knife fight, is that the winner dies on the way to the hospital.

Tasers kill more people annually in the United States than "assault weapons". Tasers are also one-time use only. Miss your attacker? Too bad. Attacker has a thick jacket? Better luck next time. Multiple attackers? That sucks.

Pepper spray is probably the least-lethal thing you can use, but it still can and does kill people. Pepper spray is horribly ineffective. Use it indoors, or against the wind, and you will incapacitate yourself. It is useless in the rain. Or if your attacker is wearing a face mask. Or if you have multiple attackers.

A gun, on the other hand, works in the rain. It works in the wind. It works equally well regardless of how strong or weak you are. It works against multiple attackers.

Guns, even if "silenced", are also amazingly loud, which is a big advantage when you're defending yourself, because you want people to hear that noise and call the cops.

So, in a world where we respect peoples' human rights, allowing gun ownership really is common sense.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#680
post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fischer v Massachussetts[1] (and other cases won by the second amendment foundation) holds that resident aliens are counted amongst "the people" for purposes of second amendment protection (and other rights too!) [1] - http://ia800500.us.archive.org/20/items/gov.uscourts.mad.135...

resident alien != foreigner I believe GP was referring to times s/he's entered the US on a visitor visa of some sort.

Then there may be a de facto restriction against the exercise of such a right by such a person, as one needs to have a permanent address to comply with the laws as they are currently interpreted.
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