Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#431

Post by opportune » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

MikkoFinell wrote: post #380

davesque wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wrong attitude. It seems that, at this time in history, we have more tools at our disposal than ever before to avoid war. We have more capacity to organize and communicate now. Why should we continue to just assume that war is inevitable? I'm sure people had the same attitude toward the black plague in the middle ages. They probably thought "Oh well! All this bad air and holy wrath is inevitable. No way to avoid the…

You're right about everything. But consider ISIS, what kind of communication should we perform that will make future groups like that stop beheading people and raping children? There are situations where violence unfortunately is the only option left, and in that case you will want it to be as targeted and clean as possible to avoid collateral damage. Currently drone strikes is the best tech for that purpose, and we…

If the US only were using drones against ISIS then that would be a different story. The fact of the matter is that the US uses drones on much less morally cut-and-dry groups than ISIS, and will likely continue to do so in the future. It's like if a farmer wanted you to make them a shotgun so they could kill the wolves terrorizing their flock but you knew they were also going to use that shotgun to rob their neighbor for oil

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by kiliantics » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

niccccccccc wrote: post #72

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

Exactly. China just turned dictatorship, and has already installed AI facial recognition and soon voice recognition software for its police. This could allow China to better manage its Uighyr concentration camps and kidnap freedom fighters in Hong Kong. Along with its ambition to have everything 'Made in China' in 2025, and invade Taiwan, China is looking like a AI enhanced Hitler Germany 2.0. We need weapons to figh…

This depiction of China is blown way out of proportion and it's basically thanks to US propaganda which is used to justify the kinds of military spending and activities it undertakes.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by rexpop » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

jryan49 wrote: post #4

Maybe if they were more accurate they would kill less people?

Maybe if they stopped the program they would kill less people.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by briandear » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

tolgerias wrote: post #276

harimau777 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that fundamental human rights means rights that exist inherently regardless of whether the UN or any given country recognizes them. My feeling is that people have a right to self defense, which would require them to have access to some effective weapon. In theory that could be a club or blade rather than a firearm; however, currently firearms are the only (somewhat) socially acceptable weapon to carry in th…

self defense is a human right only in a lawless society. The existence of the state makes it necessary for it to have the monopoly of the application of force, and all matters should be resolved in a civil court of law. Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state.. while that is the defin…

..only in a lawless society?

Nazi Germany was a country full of laws. (I realize I am Godwin’s law-ing, but the parent implied that self-defense ought not be a right in a society with legal institutions and laws; Nazi Germany is a perfect counter example of how “laws” aren’t always just and that a fear of government is a legitimate concern.)

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by shpongled » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

alistairSH wrote: post #294

jteppinette wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does it say you can regulate my rights?

WRT the 2A, it's right there in the text: "well regulated". WRT other rights... Explicitly? Not always in the Constitution. But, if you think you can cry "Fire!" in a theater, you would be mistaken. SCOTUS has upheld reasonable restrictions on rights over and over. It's a settled matter. (edited - cleaned up my thoughts a bit)

"Well regulated" in it's historical context doesn't mean anything close to what we think of as "regulation" today. The phrase means "functional" or "functioning". E.g. “If a liberal Education has formed in us well-regulated Appetites and worthy Inclinations.”, or "The equation of time … is the adjustment of the difference of time as shown by a well-regulated clock and a true sun dial.”

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by garmaine » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

treebeard901 wrote: post #71

danesparza wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My memory isn't short. You made a point of talking about cryptography. The US government also classified crypto as munitions in order to control its usage and export: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th... This had very negative effects on cryptography in general (see the FREAK exploit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREAK ) Also, why wouldn't this be employed to better monitor Stingray ( http…

The classification of cryptography as munitions was an interesting choice. The first amendment may protect domestic encryption capabilities as stated by the wikipedia article. From a legal standpoint, does encryption being classified as munitions also put it into second amendment territory? As information becomes weaponized, it's an interesting thought. The first amendment is arguably more vulnerable these days, so I…

Nuclear weapons are munitions. A U235 bomb like Hiroshima’s is technically a gun even. Do you have a right to carry one of those?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by nugi » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #398

komali2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, and I want to make a "times change" argument. This is my perspective, because I read too much scifi: I can conceive of a couple possibilities in 300 years. 1. Humanity is gone or stone-aged. Either because it failed to colonize before being wiped out by disease, because it nuked itself, or because it implemented AI in a way that got itself killed. 2. Humanity has turned peaceful, formed a global community…

If you're so worried about the world destroying itself with its own weapons, how are you going to enforce your weapons ban without using weapons?

But if all the guns were gone we wouldn't need any anymore, ergo world peace, cats and dogs living together, and mcdonalds becomes vegan. /s

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by Maybestring » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #180

batmansmk wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born and raised in Normandy, and saw the dire sacrifice a generation had to make. On my way to school, I could see the bullet holes in the walls, the tombstones of nameless soldiers, the bombs and mines we had to defuse in the fields. What our grandfathers did was noble. What we do now is the business of war. I find it diminishing to compare what they did to what Google does now.

I completely agree with this. Trying to compare WWII to the actions of the modern military is absurd. How can you possibly compare it with overthrowing governments in South America and the Middle East, Vietnam, Guantanamo, Abu Gharib, drone strikes on hospitals, up to 200k civilians dead in Iraq, and much more - and of coursr the deeply, deeply questionable motives of all of these. The actions of our ancestors in WWI…

>drone strikes on hospitals, up to 200k civilians dead in Iraq

You are looking at allied actions in WWII through rose colored glasses if you think that's worse.

Dresden, Tokyo, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Berlin, Saint-Nazair... the allies engaged in total war.

Civillians are part of the war making capability of a nation, and in WWII all sides considered them to be valid targets.

In Saint-Nazair's case it wasn't even enemy civillians. The German U-boat port was too heavily fortified, so the British wiped out the occupied French town that fed it.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by sneak » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

So this is about data processing of video feeds used to target.

If you think about it, we (including Google employees) have known Google has been doing this in a different way to assist in waging war ever since Snowden showed us those slides. Google processes data for the government that allows them to know who to target for war.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by wilsonnb » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:57 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #256

stale2002 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we already have nukes, why would we need anything else? Nukes prevent any war from happening between any powerful nation. The only use for the other types of weapons is to participate in some other civil war in another country that we shouldn't be in. So no, I don't care if we "fall behind" because we still have nukes and those are enough to protect us in the conflicts that matter.

> Nukes prevent any war from happening between any powerful nation. So, in the universe you are writing from, the Kargil War would have been an impossibility?

India and Pakistan aren't really powerful nations in the nuclear sense that the US and Russia are. I assume the person you are replying means powerful nation as "nation with a lot of nukes", which is pretty much only the US and Russia.

US Nukes: 7300

Russia Nukes: 8000

India Nukes: 90-100

Pakistan nukes: 100-120

Everyone except the US and Russia nukes: ~1100

(source: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/nine-nations-have-n...)