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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#211

Post by smokeyj »

plandis wrote: post #178
smokeyj wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but maybe that just means I’m just a no-good warmongering fool, right? More specifically, a warmongering fool who can't discern a false dichotomy - because your options in life are rarely ever drones vs more lethal drones. These regions we're using drones in. They could probably use more tools to enable true democratic representation. Isn't that what Google should be doing, given that they "don't do evil"? Building…

Id argue it's not a false dichotomy because drone strikes will go on regardless of what Google does. It's very clear that whatever collateral damage drones currently cause is an acceptable cost to the militaries using them.

"If you don't help make drones more accurate, you're the reason for collateralized murder".

Or, you could like, just stop droning innocent people to death. Not saying we all have to agree, but just that factually speaking - it's within the realm of possibilities. And for that reason it's a false dichotomy.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#212

Post by Darthy »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #87
otterley wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not going to explain for the rest of us, what was the point of this comment?

To communicate that the people on the inside of Google who are making these protestations are grossly uninformed about the Google-Maven relationship. Choose to believe me or not. My background is all out there for people to see.

When it comes to life-or-death questions, we should make informed decisions. "Just trust me" fundamentally lacks any valuable information that furthers the discussion. In addition, "just trust me" also endangers less clear thinking people to sway based on emotion instead of well-founded cold hard facts.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#214

Post by IAmEveryone »

jcwayne wrote: post #165

Serious question for those who agree with this petition. Which country's military would you like to see be the most technologically advanced in 20 years?

I'd vote for Belgium.

More seriously: the US has nuclear weapons, rendering them safe from any direct confrontation with enemies challenging them technologically.

They have a conventional military 10x the size needed for the sort of intervention that actually succeeded in the past (the Balkans, the first Gulf war). The rather unsuccessful wars (Afghanistan, Iraq) were lost not for technological reasons or any other dimension of military might, but because the US military sucks at convincing people of the benefits of democracy.

Want to win the next ten wars? Put the money into Hollywood blockbusters and the world's best Halal fast food chain.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#215

Post by InitialLastName »

orf wrote: post #171
tc313 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but I’m pretty sure the second amendment only applies to guns; you can’t walk around with an RPG on your shoulder.

Isn't the 2a just a "well armed malitia"? Maybe an RPG is more than well armed, but encryption?

"well-regulated militia," but it's pretty much an open question how much that actually has to do with the right described in the second clause. Gun rights activists tend to down-play that first bit, as it implies a collective perspective that they find conceptually incompatible with unlimited individual gun ownership rights.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#216

Post by Asdfbla »

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

While that may be the reality of things, it surely can't be a justification in any way. If anything, I'd be afraid to revert back to those dark times where technological advancements were driven mainly by military needs.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#217

Post by walshemj »

jahewson wrote: post #124
criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

Nobody stood up to Stalin and Mao. Cherry picking the good stuff doesn’t make the bad stuff acceptable. Carpet bombing of civilians in German cities for example - an act of zero military value. The takeaway from WWII is not that the military is a wonderful thing but that the UN is a wonderful thing.

Well depends those cities had large military plants Hamburg was building the scary fast U boats for example.

Btw I am lucky as my fathers house was bombed (when he wasn't in it) oh but he did live near the larges spitfire plant - which was a military target.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#218

Post by palisade »

Not helping them improve precision of the drone strikes reduces the precision of those strikes which leads to more innocent lives lost as collateral. An argument could be made that using AI to improve surgical strike capability of drones would be the lesser of the two evils. Seems misguided, no pun intended.

Also, Google dropped the slogan "Don't be evil" in favor of "Do the right thing." Not that it matters because they barely followed it anyway.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#219

Post by walshemj »

ixtli wrote: post #136
scarmig wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...the US military never clashed with Stalin's military AFAIK. Even in the Korean war, the USSR only provided supplies. That standing up to Hitler also involved a peer partnership with the USSR's military.

Moreover, the Red Army did the majority of the 'heavy lifting' in Europe during WW2. There are some pretty striking political cartoon from Dr. Seuss about this, depicting the US and Britain traveling in comfort to Germany, while the USSR carries all of their luggage.

Apart from the other fronts and the destruction of the German infrastructure and blockading supplies to Germany?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#220

Post by drak0n1c »

jahewson wrote: post #124
criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

Nobody stood up to Stalin and Mao. Cherry picking the good stuff doesn’t make the bad stuff acceptable. Carpet bombing of civilians in German cities for example - an act of zero military value. The takeaway from WWII is not that the military is a wonderful thing but that the UN is a wonderful thing.

The Korean war was a case of the US and UN standing up to Mao's influence. The North Koreans lost ground until PRC forces started pouring in.
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