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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#171

Post by orf »

tc313 wrote: post #140
treebeard901 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classification of cryptography as munitions was an interesting choice. The first amendment may protect domestic encryption capabilities as stated by the wikipedia article. From a legal standpoint, does encryption being classified as munitions also put it into second amendment territory? As information becomes weaponized, it's an interesting thought. The first amendment is arguably more vulnerable these days, so I…

IANAL but I’m pretty sure the second amendment only applies to guns; you can’t walk around with an RPG on your shoulder.

Isn't the 2a just a "well armed malitia"? Maybe an RPG is more than well armed, but encryption?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#172

Post by InitialLastName »

tc313 wrote: post #140
treebeard901 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classification of cryptography as munitions was an interesting choice. The first amendment may protect domestic encryption capabilities as stated by the wikipedia article. From a legal standpoint, does encryption being classified as munitions also put it into second amendment territory? As information becomes weaponized, it's an interesting thought. The first amendment is arguably more vulnerable these days, so I…

IANAL but I’m pretty sure the second amendment only applies to guns; you can’t walk around with an RPG on your shoulder.

IAANAL but I'm pretty sure the second amendment is actually really vague in terms of what it refers to, and has actually been tested in court less often than one might think.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#173

Post by jahewson »

PeterStuer wrote: post #94
criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

You would be here. Your job would be the same. In fact, it would be hard to tell the difference. With all due respect, the 'ultimate sacrifices' might have been given, but many believe, including those that survived the horrors of war, that it was never to safeguard you, but rather a feast for those that prey on volatility.

That’s not a safe assumption. The US was awfully busy fighting the Japanese. Had they stayed out of Europe, Hitler would certainly have defeated Britain (leaving Africa unprotected) and likely had the resources spare to defeat the USSR too. From there Hitler could support the Japanese against the US and would have massive resources to do so.

Hitler’s plan really was world domination. He had plans for a rocket-powered trans-Atlantic plane to bomb New York. Not to mention that the Nazis had the V2 and even a jet fighter by the end of the war (but too few resources to build/deploy them). With more resources the Nazis may well have developed their nuclear bomb.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#174

Post by meri_dian »

shadofx wrote: post #121
meri_dian wrote: post #10

>"...that uses artificial intelligence to interpret video imagery and could be used to improve the targeting of drone strikes." These drone strikes have been happening for decades without interpretive AI, and they will probably continue with or without. So let's make the strikes more precise and save more civilians. >"But improved analysis of drone video could be used to pick out human targets for strikes, while also…

The need for human operators to identify targets serves as a hard logistical limit to how many drone strikes can be delivered. Turning them into a machine removes that limit. Suppose you decrease error rate by 10% (optimistic), but increase volume by 20% (probably underestimated). You'll get an 8% increase in innocent deaths.

Where are you coming up with those percentages? Why are you assuming that human operators will be removed from the decision making process?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#175

Post by awakeasleep »

jcwayne wrote: post #165

Serious question for those who agree with this petition. Which country's military would you like to see be the most technologically advanced in 20 years?

Doesn't the fact that this is another step towards autonomous killing machines complicate your view of this?

A lot of Silicon Valley's justification for its immoral actions rests on the _belief_ of the inevitability of outcomes. It's ok to monopolize and centralize everything, discarding the lives of people who are negatively impacted because it's inevitable. It's ok to make robots able to kill people better because it's inevitable, etc.

The thing is, it's a _belief_ that this is inevitable — not a proven fact of nature. And people who don't believe in it will logically withdraw their cooperation from building that future.

Both sides are 'proving' their point of view. If enough people object, then it wasn't inevitable after all. If enough people work to bring us into that future, maybe it was. But thats the struggle and moral choice we face.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#176

Post by [deleted] »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #109
s3r3nity wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Google drop its "Don't be evil" motto a few years ago?

No, this is a common misconception. Google still has "Don't be evil", but Alphabet also now has "Do the right thing". Both are hilarious in the context of what Google actually does.

[deleted]

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#177

Post by chimen »

maxxxxx wrote: post #112
friedman23 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just imagine if we stopped spending on defense in the 80s when the cold war ended and we had to deal with today's Russia with decades old technology

I think we would be fine with a smaller military. Nobody is talking about completely stopping military expenditures. The question is whether it really needs to be as big as it is right now.

Overturning so many regimes in petrol filled countries is a messy business. I think a big chunk of the spending goes to intelligence and misinformation.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#178

Post by plandis »

smokeyj wrote: post #132
airstrike wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being “mindful of their actions” doesn’t necessarily mean they are doing the right thing. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I don’t really get why anyone would want drones to be less accurate, but maybe that just means I’m just a no-good warmongering fool, right?

> but maybe that just means I’m just a no-good warmongering fool, right? More specifically, a warmongering fool who can't discern a false dichotomy - because your options in life are rarely ever drones vs more lethal drones. These regions we're using drones in. They could probably use more tools to enable true democratic representation. Isn't that what Google should be doing, given that they "don't do evil"? Building…

Id argue it's not a false dichotomy because drone strikes will go on regardless of what Google does. It's very clear that whatever collateral damage drones currently cause is an acceptable cost to the militaries using them.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#179

Post by no_wizard »

The fact remains regardless of historical anecdotes or advances made in the past that in today’s economic landscape one of the few steadily profitable and maintainable businesses is doing work for the Department of Defense. Regardless of who is president this is an organization that regularly gets well over 200+ billion in funding and much of what they do has little oversight. If you are a business large or small and can land a long term DOD contract I’ve seen businesses that needed capital but couldn’t raise it pivot to a well funded DOD project and then able to reap those profits into their other businesses successful.

It’s a sad state really but this is probably the main idea behind partnering with them in the first place

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#180

Post by GordonS »

batmansmk wrote: post #97
criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

I was born and raised in Normandy, and saw the dire sacrifice a generation had to make. On my way to school, I could see the bullet holes in the walls, the tombstones of nameless soldiers, the bombs and mines we had to defuse in the fields. What our grandfathers did was noble. What we do now is the business of war. I find it diminishing to compare what they did to what Google does now.

I completely agree with this. Trying to compare WWII to the actions of the modern military is absurd.

How can you possibly compare it with overthrowing governments in South America and the Middle East, Vietnam, Guantanamo, Abu Gharib, drone strikes on hospitals, up to 200k civilians dead in Iraq, and much more - and of coursr the deeply, deeply questionable motives of all of these.

The actions of our ancestors in WWII were borne out of necessity - those of the modern military are driven by money, greed, propaganda and political point-scoring.

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