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Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

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Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#261

Post by cdmcmahon »

tudelo wrote: post #158
cdmcmahon wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If women aren’t having the same access to more lucrative positions or fields that men are, then that is discrimination — in education or the workplace or both. Unless you believe that something about women drives them away from such positions/fields or makes them less qualified in such positions/fields, in which case you are in the Damore camp.

Why can't it be a combination of both, ignoring compensation? Why can't one sex have a higher propensity towards a profession than the other, independent of compensation? It seems to me that it is a complex issue that has a lot more factors than simply discrimination.

I suppose it can be. The natural follow up is what you think it is about, say, engineering or law or finance or [insert field here] that men have a higher propensity toward? And why is it that nearly all of the most lucrative and powerful fields are the ones that men have a higher propensity towards? Trying to answer these gets prett hairy (and depending on your answers, very revealing about yourself) if you are trying to minimize the role of discrimination.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#262

Post by erkkie »

belorn wrote: post #230
ada1981 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting theory. So you think if women make more, than men will try to increase the wealth inequality in other ways? I'm curious about that. Alternately, they could also just learn how to validate and be with women's emotions (and their own).

You mean women could stop evaluating men based on money? Wealth for men is the single highest factor when predicting response rate for male profiles in dating sites (according to the data I have read). Wealth and earning rates of married men correlated to the rate in which their spouse will file for divorce. Men and wealth has a similar relation as women and appearance. Men as a single group has as much ability to st…

And it's unknown which factors here are cultural and which are biological. Society is trying to treat this as only a cultural thing but we're still highly evolved cellular automatons.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#264

Post by PunchTornado »

freehunter wrote: post #129
ShadowFaxSam wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to drum up any controversy and I fully admit it is a small sample size. As someone who falls in the demographic "Under 30 and Living in a Metropolitan City" I feel comfortable sharing some of my own personal and my friends experiences in their particular office as well. The dominant news story has always been the story women earn 80 percent less than men, but that was difficult to reconcile compared to wha…

I wasn't accusing you of trying to drum up controversy, I was accusing PunchTornado of doing that. They were the one trying to force you to extrapolate your limited experience to the entire population and then use that strawman for target practice.

Well, way say it then if you don't want to generalise it and give an explanation for the findings in the article. However you put it, your comment says that it may be that women in their 20s are more organized because in my company I observed this. If this statement is ok with you then fine, but it wouldn't be ok to say it loudly in some companies.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#265

Post by PunchTornado »

aninhumer wrote: post #175
adventured wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is true, it implies we need help programs for the young men who are being systematically discrminated against or otherwise oppressed by society. That includes new assistance programs to boost the rate of college graduation, since young men are so badly falling behind there (with projections for it to get much worse yet). Victim blaming would be a common response, to proclaim that it's the fault of these young m…

An alternative explanation, given the difference in numbers here, is that discrimination against women means that the only women remaining in the field are those who are the most competent and well prepared for the job, whereas less competent men are given the benefit of the doubt, and allowed into the same positions.

Nope, the number of women and men in the workplace is almost the same in countries like Iceland, while the wage difference between males and females in their 20s is still there.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#266

Post by PunchTornado »

aninhumer wrote: post #175
adventured wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is true, it implies we need help programs for the young men who are being systematically discrminated against or otherwise oppressed by society. That includes new assistance programs to boost the rate of college graduation, since young men are so badly falling behind there (with projections for it to get much worse yet). Victim blaming would be a common response, to proclaim that it's the fault of these young m…

An alternative explanation, given the difference in numbers here, is that discrimination against women means that the only women remaining in the field are those who are the most competent and well prepared for the job, whereas less competent men are given the benefit of the doubt, and allowed into the same positions.

The fact remains that there are more women going to college and getting a degree than men. So I don't understand why you say we don't need to balance that...

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#267

Post by PunchTornado »

fipple wrote: post #181

After having a kid I think I can see what creates the gender gap and the same effect is happening to me. Now, if there’s a conference call at 5:30 at work, I skip it. If there’s a new project that’s going to make me work extra hours I decline it. Overall I am willing to sacrifice a lot of my career for time with my kid and most women take the majority of childcare responsibility. For people without children I wouldn’…

Well, there is a gender gap. In their 20s most people don't have kids and women are earning more than men by 8%.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#268

Post by cm2187 »

cdmcmahon wrote: post #260
chemochemo wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed -- if they aren't having the same _access_, it is discrimination. But once again, nothing in the study points to that. Do you believe men don't have access to jobs in the field of nursing? On average, women outnumber men 9.5 to 1 in nursing in the US. [0] [0] https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk...

I think nursing may be a field where certain stereotypes, etc. keep the gender balance of the working population a certain way. And I think you correctly point out that men do have _access_ to the field of nursing so it’s not ad much of a problem per se. That said, the reason I think you can say men aren’t denied access is because you don’t have hordes of men revealing patterns of regular and constant discrimination,…

Not really. In France 60% of doctors are female. 80% for new judges. Is that the self perpetuation of a stereotype? Are these low pay/low influence professions? If you measure discrimination just by the outcome provided it is a lucrative/powerful profession then these should be deemed to be discriminations. I don’t believe they are.

In the technology field, I have studied engineering in France, where the top school were only accessible through an anonymous competitive exam. There is very little room for discrimination there. Just math and physics exercises on an anonymous piece of paper. But both the candidates and the students who were selected were 80% male. Of course recruiters end up hiring 80% male engineers, how could it be not the case? But that’s not discrimination.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#269

Post by J-dawg »

the_grue wrote: post #239
Reedx wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics literacy would help, but there are a lot of highly educated people who repeat things like the pay gap myth. I think the problem is more about ideology and the lack of critical thought.

If even PhD's can't be expected to adhere to basic standards of intellectual honesty and critical thinking, then how can we ever expect the general society to grow up and realize the value of these things? How can we, the enlightened few (I say this half-seriously, of course, because obviously I am not without fault myself), ever expect to be able to lead a logical conversation with most normal folks we encounter in…

This is a fantastic comment.

I've met several people who treat my tendency to value critical thought as if it's nothing more than a quirky personality trait, and acting based on emotions and feelings is just as valid. It's infuriating.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#270

Post by mcny »

dingo_bat wrote: post #186
jabot wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't believe I'm any kind of expert in negotiation. That means that transparency works _for_ you, not against you.

But that doesn't mean I'm ready to give up my privacy.

That is exactly what they want us to think. I'm glad you at least realize there is information asymmetry at play here. Thank you for keeping an open mind. You have come farther than many people I've talked to. We can get there.
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