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Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

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Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#111

Post by fjsolwmv »

adventured wrote: post #98
PunchTornado wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can justify your position "these young women were better prepared and organised than their male counterpart in their 20's". You say that women in their 20s are better at something than men in their 20s. I believe you know this is indefensible and if you would say the reverse you would get kicked out of your job.

If it is true, it implies we need help programs for the young men who are being systematically discrminated against or otherwise oppressed by society. That includes new assistance programs to boost the rate of college graduation, since young men are so badly falling behind there (with projections for it to get much worse yet). Victim blaming would be a common response, to proclaim that it's the fault of these young m…

Peg Tyre wrote the classic book on this 10 years ago: https://www.amazon.com/Trouble-Boys-Surprising-Problems-Educ...

It hasn't gotten a huge amount of follow-up traction in schools though.

Also The New Jim Crow for a racial perspective that hits black men's employment prospects pretty hard.

https://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-Incarceration-Colorblind...

BTW for folks who are concerned that feminist or women don't care about boys and men, these two leasing books are books written by women about the abuse boys and men face.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#112

Post by door3 »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #95
door3 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a lot of things that are irrational to an employer, ie providing health insurance or limiting the hours their employees work. Fortunately labor laws exist and are enforced. And just to emphasize, I said the primary caregiver, who is usually but not slways a woman.

Employer provided healthcare is insane and is leftover from ecomic-distorting policies of WWII.

Well yea, healthcare should be a right of all people and not contingent upon employment but that wasn’t really my point

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#113

Post by fjsolwmv »

fufonzo wrote: post #76
michaelt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no perceptible gap in wages between almost any pair of social groups, For some people, that won't be enough for them to say things are fair. After all, if women are more represented among junior positions and less among senior positions, some people might blame childbirth - but other people will blame systematic biases like family-unfriendly policies and unconscious biases.

I assume you meant to include "provided we compare only similar roles"? Well in itself, I don't think that's enough to say that things are fair. For example, that wouldn't take into account hiring biases. If women have a real hard time getting jobs in those roles, what does it matter if people in those roles get paid the same, regardless of gender? I feel the main issue with the gender gap discrimination discussion i…

Did you forget to mention discrimination as a possible source that can't be accounted for?

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#114

Post by fyi1183 »

RHSeeger wrote: post #59
the_grue wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The word "peers" in the title implies comparison between people with a similar background (education, industry, etc). But it seems the actual study just compares the average salary of all single, young, childless women vs the average salary of all single, young, childless men across the economy.

I would argue that the analysis of wages based on different groupings is worthwhile; as long as you don't try to predetermine what you're going to get out of them. This analysis doesn't show us that woman make more given equal background/education/etc. However, it does provide the interesting information that women (of that age group) are generally better educated. If we take out of it the desire to find out why they…

So on [1], there is an interesting question of cause and effect. Are women voluntarily taking inherently lower paid jobs on average? Or is it involuntary / due to social pressure? Or are certain jobs lower paid because they're predominantly taken by women?

The latter is at least a possibility.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#115

Post by GuB-42 »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #65
wu-ikkyu wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is clear envidence for a “gender pay gap” - in that women get paid on average less than men. If you control for education, years of experience, and skills there is no such gap.

Do you have a source for that claim? From what I’ve understood the gap shrinks to somehing like 4-8%, not that it goes away entirely. I would like studies if it goes away entirely (because I haven’t seen such a study).

The trick here is how to match men with women in order to make the comparison.

Do we group by job position, skill level, education, experience? And what is "same experience"? In tech, it is usually counted in years, regardless on how many hours you work during the year. Compare to airline pilots where the metric is flight hours. The same kind questions can be asked for all other points. Even the wage can be tweaked. Is it by year? working day? hour? What about pauses, overtime, work at home, commute time, ...

By carefully choosing the metrics, we can say whatever we want.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#116

Post by ShadowFaxSam »

freehunter wrote: post #106
PunchTornado wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can justify your position "these young women were better prepared and organised than their male counterpart in their 20's". You say that women in their 20s are better at something than men in their 20s. I believe you know this is indefensible and if you would say the reverse you would get kicked out of your job.

>You say that women in their 20s are better at something than men in their 20s I don't know what comment you read, but the comment I read said nothing remotely close to this. If you want to paraphrase what they said, it'd be more like "the very small sample of women I was exposed to in a small amount of time at one single professional workplace were better prepared for the job than the very small sample of men I was…

Not trying to drum up any controversy and I fully admit it is a small sample size. As someone who falls in the demographic "Under 30 and Living in a Metropolitan City" I feel comfortable sharing some of my own personal and my friends experiences in their particular office as well.

The dominant news story has always been the story women earn 80 percent less than men, but that was difficult to reconcile compared to what I was seeing in my work life. This article backed up some of those points.

If you are looking for hard data to back up what I experienced, the article posted here is a perfect source.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#117

Post by gluelogic »

icebraining wrote: post #72
magduf wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If a woman is smart enough to be a programmer, she's smart enough for other lucrative professions that are more social and have better advancement potential and job security, such as medicine (doctors, surgeoons), law, finance, etc. A lot of women go into programming because it's been hyped up so much, and then either going into management quickly or leaving the industry because they hate the work and how as…

If a woman is smart enough to be a programmer, she's smart enough for other lucrative professions that are more social and have better advancement potential and job security, such as medicine (doctors, surgeoons), law, finance, etc. Why isn't this true of men?

What he is saying is that, generally, given the choice, women will prefer social work to asocial work.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#118

Post by orclev »

ShadowFaxSam wrote: post #53

"Applies only to unmarried, childless women under 30 who live in cities" This is a trend that I have personally witnessed since joining the corporate workforce as a recent college graduate living in a major city. In general I saw my female colleagues getting promoted faster and moving up faster than their male counterparts. In no way do I think it was favouritism, I just believe our senior management thought these yo…

Previous studies like these have generally shown that young attractive females make considerably more than male employees with a similar level of education and experience, but as you go up in age the trend reverses with older or less attractive female employees making less. Basically there is a bias, but it isn't so much gender in general as it is being attractive sexually (or not as the case may be). I'm not aware of any study that has tested if that applies to both genders (from the data it very clearly applies to females, but there may be a lesser effect applied to males as well), but that would be something interesting to look at. I suspect it would show there is a similar bias applied to males, but with a significantly smaller effect that's mostly lost in the noise.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#119

Post by carlmr »

crusso wrote: post #101
carlmr wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking the same. The study is stupid, but for the same reason any of the women's pay gap studies in the last few years fall short. Comparing apples and oranges is the new science.

Yep. In a world of such pervasive intellectual dishonesty, what's the best course of action? While I admire the people and arguments that have the most intellectual integrity, it seems that demagoguery just works better when it comes to shaping public policy. At the end of the day, the problem is that most people (voters) wouldn't even begin to understand or appreciate the distinction between demagoguery and intellec…

The best way around this is to have education. Especially on topics like statistics literacy (not really just statistics, but how to read them), journalism, lobbyism and propaganda. These things should be taught in high school. Taking apart arguments in old propaganda (where there is less political motive) and encouraging people to look out for new propaganda.

Of course it doesn't seem the government would be interested in having such an educated populace.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#120

Post by logfromblammo »

Real life stubbornly resists all attempts to make it more fair.

An 8% difference in either direction is acceptable to me. It's good enough to tolerate until it's worth revisiting for further improvements. So now that we have the gender pay gap (almost) sorted out, perhaps we should tackle a problem more likely to cause societal problems: the increasing measures of wealth inequality.

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