Swedes turn against cashlessness • Hacker News Board

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#201

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:19 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #173

Good. The cashless drive gives me the creeps. 1 - First, I like cash. It's tactile and gives me a feel for my spending. 2 - Cards are an duopoly, layered onto an oligopoly. Cashless gives this system a 2% tax on all spending (+ fraud, which retailers pay for). 3 - Government control is creepy too. Liberty reasons, privacy reasons, single-point-of failure reasons. Just simple competency reasons. 4 - It advantages big…

> How does a cashless lemonade stand work?

In my neighborhood, with Square. Or at least that's how the kids a couple of streets over did it last year. With great big cartoony Visa and MasterCard logos on posterboard.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#202

Post by Viliam1234 » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:22 PM UTC

nearmuse wrote: post #180

Looks like most people in this comments section are afraid to pass for a luddite if they don't support cashless transactions. But the argument about centralized system watching every payment you make is still valid. Why are people so eager to jump off something and irreversibly lose its good properties (anonymity, decentralization and reliability in case of analogue money) and that just for the sake of minor comfort?…

It's not just "centralized system watching every payment you make", but also a possibility that it could veto your payment.

The crude option is when 'undesirable' citizens will not be given credit cards, or if all their cards 'accidentally' stop functioning the same day to teach them a lesson. When no shop sells you food for money, your options are to beg, steal, or starve.

A more sophisticated option could be 'intelligent' credit cards that only allow you to buy approved stuff (otherwise the payment will fail); with the approval being general, or individual for each citizens, or depending on social class or whatever. This wouldn't happen overnight, but we can get there gradually... it may start by politically acceptable stuff like "you can't buy alcohol or guns using welfare money" and progress slowly.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#203

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

skrause wrote: post #192

dalbasal wrote: post #173

Good. The cashless drive gives me the creeps. 1 - First, I like cash. It's tactile and gives me a feel for my spending. 2 - Cards are an duopoly, layered onto an oligopoly. Cashless gives this system a 2% tax on all spending (+ fraud, which retailers pay for). 3 - Government control is creepy too. Liberty reasons, privacy reasons, single-point-of failure reasons. Just simple competency reasons. 4 - It advantages big…

> 2 - Cards are an duopoly, layered onto an oligopoly. Cashless gives this system a 2% tax on all spending (+ fraud, which retailers pay for). Not in the European Union where this fee is capped to 0,3%.

When it's free in the EU, then you'll have a point. Until then you're not addressing his argument.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#204

Post by pasbesoin » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

Simplistic statement, but stop and think about it:

In a truly cashless society, where every transaction is tracked and has the potential to be controlled, nothing is fungible.

Sure. There might be a thousand identical widgets in inventory. But if you are not allowed to purchase one, or sell your inventory...

Cashless: The guise of easing transactions and security. The trojan horse of controlling transactions through "security".

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#205

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:27 PM UTC

supreme_sublime wrote: post #186

dalbasal wrote: post #173

Good. The cashless drive gives me the creeps. 1 - First, I like cash. It's tactile and gives me a feel for my spending. 2 - Cards are an duopoly, layered onto an oligopoly. Cashless gives this system a 2% tax on all spending (+ fraud, which retailers pay for). 3 - Government control is creepy too. Liberty reasons, privacy reasons, single-point-of failure reasons. Just simple competency reasons. 4 - It advantages big…

With the amount of political pressure I've seen recently to cut off people from their income (advertiser boycotts, contacting employers directly, etc) I've wondered about money transfers and if people will start going after those companies next. What recourse do you have if banks refuse to take your money? If credit card companies refuse to give you a line of credit? I don't know much about that level of infrastructu…

There are a number of options for people who have to or need to go bankless. Look around in any poor/immigrant neighborhood and you'll see ads for "currency exchanges" that act like banks, pre-paid charge cards, and companies willing to give all kinds of loans as long as they can verify employment or hold your car title.

It's not ideal, and it's very easy to get ripped off, but it's possible to live that way. Millions of people do.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#206

Post by mrnobody_67 » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:27 PM UTC

pilsetnieks wrote: post #48

ciocan42 wrote: post #20

From what I've seen here in London (UK), mostly tourists use cash. Everybody else uses contactless payments. You can pay with contactless cards or apple/android pay on the public transport or on your corner grocery store. And with the new fin-tech banks like Monzo, Starling or Revolut the banking apps are light years ahead of traditional banks.

Because of currency exchange fees that would be incurred by using cards or other options (although Sweden has the same problem.) Within the eurozone I don't even bother taking any extra cash with me.

Haven't found a fee free travel card for canadians... in fact our major bank (TD) just increased FX fees from 2.5% - > 3.5% on foreign transactions, on top of a super unfavourable exchange rate. I usually bring stacks of cash on my trips.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#207

Post by mmagin » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

(I live in the USA.)

I have two credit cards (and one debit card, but I only use it as an ATM card to get cash, since you're still out the money until a problem is resolved). I mostly only use credit cards for online purchasing and gasoline -- because to pay cash there is inconvenient. And yet, I see to experience some kind of credit card fraud about once every couple years -- this is primarily why I have two credit cards, there's always a backup.

And besides that inconvenience -- changing all kinds of saved payment info when a card is replaced, given the extent to which (at least in this country) banks are free to share incredible amounts of information, you don't have to have "something to hide" to be interested in not sharing your entire purchasing history with these entities.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#208

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

imartin2k wrote: post #153

I live in Sweden. No one I know uses cash. I haven't had the need for nor used cash for years. Even if headlines often are overblown, this feels particularly misleading, as it implies that there would be some bigger trend. Considering that many people only read headlines, I'd support a movement for becoming more accurate even with headlines. "In Sweden, some worry about the cashless society" would be way more apt.

Perhaps you missed this part: "But an opinion poll this month revealed unease among Swedes, with almost seven out of 10 saying they wanted to keep the option to use cash, while just 25% wanted a completely cashless society."

You might be cashless within your little tech circle, but it appears there are many more people who are uneasy with the idea.

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#209

Post by reaperducer » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #169

imartin2k wrote: post #153

I live in Sweden. No one I know uses cash. I haven't had the need for nor used cash for years. Even if headlines often are overblown, this feels particularly misleading, as it implies that there would be some bigger trend. Considering that many people only read headlines, I'd support a movement for becoming more accurate even with headlines. "In Sweden, some worry about the cashless society" would be way more apt.

People must still use cash to buy drugs, sex, and that sort of thing no?

Not necessarily. Not even in Nevada.

If you go to a legal brothel in Nevada, it doesn't show up on your credit card with the brothel's name. It shows up as some bland innocuous looking generic company name like "ARB, Inc."

Re: Swedes turn against cashlessness

#210

Post by agsamek » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #173

Good. The cashless drive gives me the creeps. 1 - First, I like cash. It's tactile and gives me a feel for my spending. 2 - Cards are an duopoly, layered onto an oligopoly. Cashless gives this system a 2% tax on all spending (+ fraud, which retailers pay for). 3 - Government control is creepy too. Liberty reasons, privacy reasons, single-point-of failure reasons. Just simple competency reasons. 4 - It advantages big…

In Poland (EU) we have BLIK system which allows for up to $1000 instant transfer for a phone number. Free of additional charge.

We pay with cards with paypass wirelessly without PIN for small amounts. This is faster than cash.

I recently stopped carrying coins and avoid paying cash.

And bank transfers are free in most banks. It takes half a day at most to reach destination bank.