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Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

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Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#361

Post by saagarjha »

dawnerd wrote: post #71
lambda_lover wrote: post #45

> "A decision to go with ARM technology in computers might lend it credibility where it has failed to gain a foothold so far." > "Apple is working on a new software platform, internally dubbed Marzipan, for release as early as this year that would allow users to run iPhone and iPad apps on Macs" Two things here: 1) I'm OK with breaking the Intel near-monopoly on x86. I'm not OK with moving to a walled garden where Ap…

> does anybody have faith that Apple is going to be able to navigate a rewrite of macOS on this scale? Inn their current yearly OS release cycle? Nope, not at all.

Why rewrite macOS? All they have to do is recompile it for ARM. We know they're already doing basically this for iOS.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#362

Post by danellis »

Lramseyer wrote: post #300
Stranger43 wrote: post #213

Have anyone checked with adobe and autodesk if this essentially kills the professional mac workstation as a viable product going forward? I have no doubt they can make it fast and usable enough for the naive consumer living inside the bubble of what relatively inexpensive(consumer grade) app-store apps can do and that microsoft will release something pretending to be MS office for a new ARM macbook line, but photosho…

If you remember back to the mid 2000's when Apple switched from PowerPC to (Intel) x86, the higher end machines still ran with PowerPC chips in them while the mid-low end products had x86 chips. All of the old applications that weren't yet ported to x86 had to use "Rosetta." It wasn't until a little while later, presumably once most of the professional software companies had good working x86 versions of their softwar…

I remember all the way back to the early 90s and the original x86 emulator running on ARM. Admittedly that was before optimizations like JIT, and a lot of research has gone into binary translation since then, but it was a painful experience at the time. I wonder how much performance would be lost these days.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#363

Post by FireBeyond »

cjensen wrote: post #91
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are the odds that Apple will just internalize x86 production... Zero, since it's wildly improbable that Intel would grant them a license to use the x86 architecture.

You don't need a license to use x86. Moreover, the x64 was created by AMD, not Intel.

> Moreover, the x64 was created by AMD, not Intel.

With the assistance of a veritable phone book of cross-licensing of patents with both Intel and VIA.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#365

Post by RI_Swamp_Yankee »

Stranger43 wrote: post #213

Have anyone checked with adobe and autodesk if this essentially kills the professional mac workstation as a viable product going forward? I have no doubt they can make it fast and usable enough for the naive consumer living inside the bubble of what relatively inexpensive(consumer grade) app-store apps can do and that microsoft will release something pretending to be MS office for a new ARM macbook line, but photosho…

If Apple needs to, they could buy either Autodesk or Adobe. To be honest, I'd prefer the buy and port Solidworks.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#366

Post by djrogers »

thothamon wrote: post #193

Well. We'll see what they do, but Apple had better be very careful. If a lot of OSS software won't run on Apple's new chip, then it becomes very hard for a software developer like myself to stick with Apple. And it is developer energy that sustains the software ecosystem for Apple....including many developers who are in the Mac ecosystem to develop for iOS. This is not necessarily the wrong move for Apple, but it is…

Much of the OSS stuff people run on macs - like the stuff that's in brew - already runs on various ARM based platforms. That's why your little raspberry pi can run a 'real desktop'.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#367

Post by huebnerob »

Bud wrote: post #283
huebnerob wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last point may be a bit of an understatement. It's going to absolutely annihilate x86 virtualization on the Mac. Like, I don't think parallels or VMware will even attempt to write an x86 emulator for ARM, they'll just pack up and leave. But the Mac thrived for a very long time without x86 compatibility, and it can do the same again, virtualization was always kind of a happy accident for us anyway.

Parallels and VMWare will just abandon their primary market? No they won't.

They can try, but you can't get blood from a stone. Emulating x86 on ARM is going to give you grotesquely low performance, it's arguably not even the same category of problem that they currently solve (virtualization, not emulation).

One thing they could run with is ARM-on-ARM virtualization, which is a more direct (heh) parallel to what they do on Intel now, but ARM hypervisors are less mature, and their practical applications, less readily apparent.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#369

Post by rdsubhas »

macintux wrote: post #188
rdsubhas wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple developing chips to improve their negotiating position with Intel Not necessary. They only need to ship one model of Mac Mini or any small desktop lineup with Ryzen to improve their negotiating position while still being compatible with the existing x86_64 ecosystem. So no, this is not merely a negotiation jibe. There are definite long-term prospects. We're already moving to a mobile-first design and approach…

> Having those mobile/tablet apps expand automatically to desktop is the next logical conclusion. Thankfully Apple comprises vastly smarter people than me, but I've always thought this is a bad idea. The two interaction models are so dramatically different that I don't see how merging them makes sense. A finger is not a mouse.

> ... I've always thought this is a bad idea ... A finger is not a mouse

There are no good or bad ideas :) Its all about time, place, knowledge of tradeoffs, execution, business, marketing, taking into account all stakeholders (user is one of them) and everything holistic :)

What you say is true, a finger is not a mouse. But we're now a decade past the release of iPhone, and by this time, the industry in general (and Apple in particular) have deep knowledge about all the tradeoffs involved here. 5 years before and this can be considered a reckless bet that requires a Steve Jobs to pull out. Now, its just natural evolution. Responsive design has been around for even longer, and changing interactions based on screen and form factors is a pretty mature problem domain now.

To be very specific:

- whether its a finger or mouse can be a runtime decision, not necessarily a compile-time or clean-slate/distribution decision for different platforms

- those decisions are already standardized enough based on existing knowledge that you can let the platform/framework (or 3p libraries) handle it out-of-the-box for you and just register multiple possibilities. instead of debating finger vs mouse - think finger and mouse

i.e. different interactions requiring entirely different apps - is not necessarily true for all of them. for a 2D application, some amount of standardization is actually good, otherwise it doesn't really help all the interaction patterns and may instead stagnate them.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#370

Post by djrogers »

cJ0th wrote: post #360
jweir wrote: post #24

Apple does have a good record of moving their OS and software from different architectures. 68XXX to PPC to Intel was not a horrible experience. Having gone through three transitions I don't remember a lot of pain - but maybe I am repressing it!

> 68XXX to PPC to Intel was not a horrible experience. Unless you rely on a piece of software that does not receive any updates anymore. Then you're basically screwed. I am rather annoyed that Apple is going to break backward compatibility yet again for no good reason. Intel Mac's perform a perfectly adequate job and Intel couldn't really screw Apple because they are a rather good customer.

Intel already has screwed Apple as far as they're concerned - there have been numerous delays in macs attributed to Intel's chip delays. Apple isn't one to take kindly to holding up a significant product line for an external vendor if they have an alternative.
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