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61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

talent.works

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Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#341

Post by alicorn »

amorphid wrote: post #295
usernam wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The barrier is lower for applying, but as many other posters saying, there is simply just interest in quick ROI and zero willingness to think long term. I recruited for several years for my companies too. First thing I noticed, there is huge variability in CV for each country. When I receive a CV from an indian person (from India), I don't know if I should expect 100% lies or what, even from qualified seniors. On the…

>> When I receive a CV from an indian person (from India), I don't know if I should expect 100% lies or what, even from qualified seniors. Be careful about going there. Discrimination is illegal & unnecessary.

I work in a company with a lot of staff from India (TCS consultants). I can confirm that some of them have a fairly flexible relationship with reality and facts, and it can be incredibly irritating at times. I agree that it is most likely a cultural thing: decorating / distorting facts to achieve goals is looked upon more favorably in some cultures than others, with all the moral hazard and distorted incentives that implies. It is, however, worth noting that not everyone from India I have met is like that or that one attitude or way of communicating is automatically better than another. Once one learns to parse the code, life gets considerably easier.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#342

Post by Brockenstein »

misterhtmlcss wrote: post #314
Brockenstein wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have to assume, coming from that sort of background. College makes you take classes and learn skills that "you" don't care about or don't see immediate value to, but you have to do it anyway. Maybe not all of them are CS classes either. It's possible for a self-taught to developer to learn a lot but stay in their safe bubbles of expertise, work or school can push you out of your comfort zones quite frequently…

As an evolving self-taught I think it's too early for me to speak confidently on this topic, however I will add my two sense for what it's worth. Additional background; I'm the local Admin for a Free Code Camp (FCC) group so I meet lots of aspiring self-taughts btw. 1. Many many self-taughts (ST?) aren't joining coding for passion, they are joining because they want to change careers and think coding is easy. They th…

No I think this is also a great point. I didn't even think about all the people who try to give programming a go because they hope it's easy and they know it's lucrative, but don't really have the stomach for it. And I would have to assume at least some of those people half ass it and still try to get jobs and exaggerate their abilities hoping they can fake it till they make it, never mind the faking will likely be indefinite.

I'm sure people in HR have seen more than their fair share. Folks who have any visibility into bootcamps or anything probably see it. I think programmers as a class can be a bit insulated from the reality of how many people make the attempt or try to get jobs they're patently not qualified for relying on the potential for self-taught, non-degree'd, programmers to still have a shot.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#343

Post by eat_veggies »

kushalc wrote: post #42

Hey guys, I'm the author of this post! (And also happen to be TalentWorks CEO.) A friend sent me this link, I'm happy to answer any Qs. Also, we're hiring. :) If you're sick of spending all your hard-earned education and experience to help Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc. increase ad CTR by 0.001%, we're working on some pretty cool technical problems. Just email me at kushal@talent.works.

Are you open to hiring a high school senior? I sent you an email with my credentials.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#344

Post by justherefortart »

protonimitate wrote: post #296
justherefortart wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge difference in no work experience and no experience at all. Hiring college grads without a lot of real world experience gives you the opportunity to mentor and train in good methodologies that I find older developers will refuse to implement without incessant fighting. It is more work initially but the long run payoff has been fantastic in my experience. When you manage based on yearly expectations that…

I'm curious to hear what kinds of skill gaps you see and the severity of issues they bring, and if there are common knowledge gaps or it's more random.

Everything tends to come more slowly. And having to explain things that are very rudimentary gets old quickly (db normalization for example).

The smart ones pick it up very quickly, so it's just part of the learning experience. The downside is a lack of structure to most things as well. Learning everything through online blogs instead of deep dives into the tools and frameworks they're using. Also a more limited skillset across technologies. They tend to be focused on the one answer they've learned, not having the time typically to branch out to other tools.

I say this as a mediocre developer myself who has many shortcomings. Although I'm getting away from development as much as I can.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#345

Post by dang »

briandear wrote: post #281
bweitzman wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those titles are gendered, unfortunately. If we want such a system, we should adopt new titles that are more inclusive.

Calm down. You are part of the problem. You piss off otherwise inclusive and reasonable people with such nonsense. JourneyMAN doesn’t mean an actual “man.” That is an archaic interpretation to suggest a journeyman means “man.” We don’t call “fishermen” “fisherpersons” — that’s just silly. You can have female fisherman.

Please don't cross into personal swipes regardless of how wrong you think someone is.

Your comment after this one began with "You can fuck off if". The vector formed by these two points leads toward getting banned here. We've already had to ask you many times, and have cut you a ton of slack on this site.

Please use the site as intended—for intellectual curiosity; please don't be uncivil; and please don't use HN primarily for political or ideological battle. That's not too much to ask, and most users have no trouble getting there.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#346

Post by crankylinuxuser »

52-6F-62 wrote: post #63
crankylinuxuser wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're absolutely right! You should never lie, especially when random company HR wants 10 years of NodeJs and its been around for 2 years. Perhaps lying to get past the know-nothings in HR is acceptable. Probably not a good idea to lie to tech people you would work with.

> especially when random company HR wants 10 years of NodeJs and its been around for 2 years. My bane! I swear. I've been doing some form of programming since I was a kid, and as a hobby and moonlighting for more like 10 years, and professionally for a notable company for a few years and I still get automatic responses (* rejections) from HR within hours or a couple of days with 99% of the applications I send out wit…

Thankfully, my current place did exactly the opposite. They stated what technologies they used, and had a distinct understanding that you would not know their inhouse app.

They also wanted to see your experience. So the first thing they do before an interview is a audition. You're sat down, on prem, (sys ad job) with Windows 2012 server, IIS, MSSQL, and a toy app. You have to make it work. They record the screencap, and review it as a team to see how you perform the job.

Frankly, I love how this place works and gets things done. Roadblocks are a thing, like all jobs.. But some of these are from those much higher up. But communication and support of your coworkers is absolutely amazing.

But the other thing, I work now in a regulated space. I knew that going in (3 good friends work there as well). Lying on my resume would not be, uhh, good :) There's these nice guys and ladys in suits who specialize in a wee more stringent background checks.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#347

Post by rifung »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #311
rifung wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry couldn't you elaborate on why you can believe it easily? I feel like people in tech are paid very well so this is a surprise to me. If anything I feel overpaid despite being paid much less than most of my peers

The average Developer/Engineer/etc works about 60 hours a week, they work on things that generate millions of dollars. They, for the most part, get paid less than the accountant does. I've literally made a company millions in profit, the entire IT department probably earned less than 10% of the amount of that profit amount. The ROI in IT is extremely high, yet you'll see salespeople whose ROI is much lower making a l…

> The average Developer/Engineer/etc works about 60 hours a week, they work on things that generate millions of dollars.

Hardly anyone I know regularly works 60 hours a week..

Even if I generated a company millions of dollars, that doesn't give any indication of how much they should pay me because it doesn't count for much if a million other people can also generate them the same amount or more.

If you feel like you should get paid more then perhaps you should consider switching to a job where you would get paid more? If there are no takers then presumably you don't offer something which is valuable enough that companies are willing to pay the amount you think they should.

Of course, I suppose one of the big problems with programmers is that it's very difficult to measure job performance but either way, I have a very hard time complaining about my compensation.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#349

Post by lulmerchant »

toyg wrote: post #139
outworlder wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of job ad is seen in other countries as well, not just the US, even ones where foreign applicants are really uncommon.

It's not limited to visa-cheating; in certain industries, you have to advertise the position even if you already know who you're going to hire. Look at the backpages of publications like The Economist - do you really think huge companies will find a CEO or Senior Executive with a magazine ad? Of course not.

That's how I got my current job. I was working as a consultant for a company, and we all mutually decided that I should come in and fill a rather high ranking permanent role there. They asked me to write the job description for it, and work with HR to get it posted. That night I went home and applied for the job. That being said, I've never properly applied for a job in my life, and I'm pretty sure this is rather common.

Re: 61% of “Entry-Level” Jobs Require 3+ Years of Experience

#350

Post by crimsonalucard »

paulie_a wrote: post #164
crimsonalucard wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, it's a thinking ahead investment scenario with risk. But if you look at it from a transactional point of view it makes no sense: I pay you to educate you while you provide me with nothing.

If an employer is thinking with that mentality, why would I ever want to work for them?

A fair transaction rather than a risky investment? Let me ask you something. Would you work for an employer that will only maybe pay you after one year? Because that's essentially the payoff an employer gets when they decide to take on an entry level hire.

Think about it this way. Why would any employer hire you if you have that mentality?

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