Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#91

Post by gnicholas » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:25 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #2

If he had seen this issue multiple times before why would he keep using autopilot in that area? That seems like a very odd decision.

I imagine Tesla will make this argument in court. California is a comparative negligence state, so they can claim that some percentage of the negligence should be apportioned to him since he knew that the autopilot didn’t work great in this location.

I’m not saying this is a winning argument, especially since he did so much to bring it to their attention, but just that Tesla would be expected to raise it.

Of course, they’ll probably try to settle this quietly and hope that everyone goes back to worrying about the Uber self-driving fatality...

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#92

Post by smoyer » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:27 PM UTC

ucaetano wrote: post #3

MBCook wrote: post #2

If he had seen this issue multiple times before why would he keep using autopilot in that area? That seems like a very odd decision.

True, but let's not blame the victim.

There are definitely times when the victim is to blame - in this case I think it's too early to assign blame to anyone (or anything?) so if your warning was against speculating on the cause of the crash, I'm in agreement.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#93

Post by dirtae » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

antirez wrote: post #61

"Our data shows that Tesla owners have driven this same stretch of highway with Autopilot engaged roughly 85,000 times since Autopilot was first rolled out in 2015. ... There are over 200 successful Autopilot trips per day on this exact stretch of road." Who wrote this statement does not understand software. If there is some kind of Heisenbug, those numbers are too small to prove that the software is ok, and actually…

I believe the accident happened on US 101, which is a multi-lane highway with 5 or 6 lanes at the spot where the accident occurred. How many of the trips Tesla is citing occurred with the vehicle in the same lane as this guy? Comparing apples to apples would probably greatly reduce these 85,000 / 200 per day figures.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#94

Post by sf_rob » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:29 PM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #90

Am I the only one that thinks that drivers with auto-pilot and back-up drivers for driver-less cars should be ready to drive at any instant? As an engineer, I'm seeing these features as beta at best.

The problem is that that's not how human cognition works. If the auto-pilot is working well your brain will inevitably become accustom to the lack of stimulus. Ironically I think that these systems have a kind of uncanny valley type area where they are probably safest when the auto-pilot is poor or great, but not in the middle.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#95

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:29 PM UTC

JohnTClark wrote: post #34

MBCook wrote: post #2

If he had seen this issue multiple times before why would he keep using autopilot in that area? That seems like a very odd decision.

Maybe Tesla told him that the issue was fixed and he can use it again. Why do people trust auto pilot at such high speeds? It is still new technology. Let the autopilot park your car, if it makes a mistake the only bad thing that can happen is just a few scratches and in 5-10 years use autopilot on low traffic streets and then go to the highway. You can't expect new technology to be safe.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#96

Post by Cshelton » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:31 PM UTC

_ph_ wrote: post #49

One thing to remember in all the discussions about the accident is, that there is no information available whether the autopilot was active at the time of the accident.

Came here to say this. It's unfair to start talking about autopilot mishaps in this case, and what this family is saying, etc. When there is NO evidence yet as to whether autopilot was engaged.

Further more.. if the barrier was already hit previously by another car, as the reason why it was collapsed prior to the Tesla crash, this may simply be an area where the road is not designed very well and causes many human error in that location. This happens all the time. In fact, road design is a significant cause of vehicle crashes.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#97

Post by smartician » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:31 PM UTC

shawn wrote: post #62

antirez wrote: post #61

"Our data shows that Tesla owners have driven this same stretch of highway with Autopilot engaged roughly 85,000 times since Autopilot was first rolled out in 2015. ... There are over 200 successful Autopilot trips per day on this exact stretch of road." Who wrote this statement does not understand software. If there is some kind of Heisenbug, those numbers are too small to prove that the software is ok, and actually…

Heisenbugs in AI are also interesting. As computers approach sentience, it will become progressively harder to explain their behavior. Why did you eat a bagel instead of eggs this morning? Usually there isn't a scientific answer. In the present, AI models are already so complicated that it seems hard to get reproducible diagnostic results, short of just saving every frame of data that the car's sensors pick up. And f…

Aren't many AI methods also inherently probabilistic? That would make it by definition impossible to definitively explain any particular behavior.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#98

Post by wbl » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:32 PM UTC

herbst wrote: post #39

YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Trains are perfectly capable for bringing me from A to B while I am sleeping for years now. For a very limited subset of points A and B, though...

Depends where you live. I had no issues in Europe or Asia so far.

LA to NYC is the distance of London to Poti, Georgia.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#99

Post by Cshelton » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:32 PM UTC

wjp3 wrote: post #9

It'll be interesting to see if anything comes of the issue with the already-collapsed crash barrier and what CalTrans says about it. That sort of thing is there for a reason, and to be left in a crushed state for any period of time is bad.

In Texas, I've seen crushed barriers remain collapsed for weeks on end. Either that or they are just hit again right after being replaced. Which tells me, it's a poorly designed road and causes confusion for drivers. Which in fact may be what this Tesla crash turns out to be.

Re: Tesla crash victim had complained about auto-pilot in same location

#100

Post by heartbreak » Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 11:32 PM UTC

JohnTClark wrote: post #34

MBCook wrote: post #2

If he had seen this issue multiple times before why would he keep using autopilot in that area? That seems like a very odd decision.

Maybe Tesla told him that the issue was fixed and he can use it again. Why do people trust auto pilot at such high speeds? It is still new technology. Let the autopilot park your car, if it makes a mistake the only bad thing that can happen is just a few scratches and in 5-10 years use autopilot on low traffic streets and then go to the highway. You can't expect new technology to be safe.

> You can't expect new technology to be safe.

Maybe I’m old fashioned, but I expect all of the technology in my mass-produced car to be safe, where safe is defined as “will not steer my vehicle into a barrier at freeway speeds.”