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Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

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Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#21

Post by eximius »

stale2002 wrote: post #11

Let me answer your question with another question. What prevents a bar exam for reading and writing? Would it be a good idea for such a thing to exist for the act of reading or writing books, news, or anything else involving language? Why should this be treated any differently for speaking to a computer?

Because he isn't talking about speaking to a computer.

He's talking about self driving cars, drones, hospitals, utility grids, etc.

Admittedly, it is hard to determine where or how you draw the line.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#22

Post by hkmurakami »

slashblake wrote: post #16

I think this is the same question of "Why isn't there a bar exam for medical doctors". "Being qualified" for software requires nothing less than hands-on training. Until software moves to more apprenticeships/residencies, I'm afraid we stuck in this "infancy" of a field.

Medicine requires board exams.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#23

Post by michaelchisari »

tvanantwerp wrote: post #20
TAForObvReasons wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional exams oftentimes cover subjects like ethics, which would undoubtedly help the industry

I doubt that unethical people act unethically because it just never occurred to them to be ethical, and that they would've known better if there was a class.

The point of teaching ethics is to help people better recognize unethical situations, not to convince the strictly unethical to become what they're not.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#24

Post by platinumrad »

eximius wrote: post #21
stale2002 wrote: post #11

Let me answer your question with another question. What prevents a bar exam for reading and writing? Would it be a good idea for such a thing to exist for the act of reading or writing books, news, or anything else involving language? Why should this be treated any differently for speaking to a computer?

Because he isn't talking about speaking to a computer. He's talking about self driving cars, drones, hospitals, utility grids, etc. Admittedly, it is hard to determine where or how you draw the line.

Are they?

>What prevents a general examination to be designed and formulated for software programming work?

There's plenty of non safety-critical software programming work to be done in this world.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#25

Post by PeterisP »

What makes bar exams work is an industry-wide agreement that they won't allow you to do the work if you haven't passed the bar exam.

It seems that it's not (and will not be) in the best interests of most employers to disqualify people who haven't passed such an exam but otherwise seem able to do the work. Thus an effective "bar exam" can not arise voluntarily, since the required factor - motivation by a critical mass of most employers - is not there.

The other alternative is a legal requirement imposed from above, but again, there seem to be no powerful forces lobbying to forbid every non-certified person from programming a computer, neither employers nor programmers themselves nor the general public seem to want that very much.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#26

Post by yourapostasy »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #6
pinewurst wrote: post #4

It's already happened implicitly with the rise & spread of the "technical interview". By rote memorization of a body of knowledge which may or may not be applicable to the job at hand. Given the interchange between employers, these are more alike than different. Why would further formalization be any more valuable than say the Interior Decorator exam and license in Florida?

Professional exams oftentimes cover subjects like ethics, which would undoubtedly help the industry

Including ethics at the individual contributor level of licensing is utterly detrimental to software individual contributors. It gives cover to business management who almost always can override technical individual contributors and technical managers even on decisions with ethical import. Ethics at the individual contributor level is NOT our civilization's problem, it is at the leadership levels, even more so the closer that leadership gets to levels where they have enough wealth and power to peddle influence upon judiciaries and legislators.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#27

Post by analog31 »

hapless wrote: post #10
platinumrad wrote: post #2

Why do you think that increasing the barriers of entry into software work is a good idea?

It could raise my wages. Being a doctor was a rather modest middle income wage until the AMA came along to raise barriers to entry.

I'm not sure about that. The thing about doctors is that people don't decide not to get sick. With programming, if regulation of the industry dampens innovation, it might reduce the demand for software, and consequently, depress wages.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#28

Post by jadedhacker »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #6
pinewurst wrote: post #4

It's already happened implicitly with the rise & spread of the "technical interview". By rote memorization of a body of knowledge which may or may not be applicable to the job at hand. Given the interchange between employers, these are more alike than different. Why would further formalization be any more valuable than say the Interior Decorator exam and license in Florida?

Professional exams oftentimes cover subjects like ethics, which would undoubtedly help the industry

Teaching ethics won't help, but providing financial and social support for dissidents would. So would requiring members to adhere to an ethics pledge that can get their membership revoked if they fail to comply.

The numerous repeated calls for ethics pledges taken by individuals I see on this site betrays a misunderstanding of how power works. Individuals can't fight the system alone, it takes a collective.

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#29

Post by radix07 »

It's called a PE (Professional Engineer) License. They introduced one for Software a few years ago. Most engineering disciplines have this and you can take the test 5 years after passing your FE (Fundamentals of Engineering) with work experience. However they are not typically needed unless you work (and sign off) on something that could be dangerous to the public. Civil engineers almost require them to work, other fields not so much. As an Electrical Engineer with an FE, I have never really seen it as being worth pursuing and maintaining, and for the software side of things even less so...

https://ncees.org/ncees-introduces-pe-exam-for-software-engi...

Re: Ask HN: What obstacles stand in the way for a “bar exam” for programming jobs?

#30

Post by allemagne »

tylercubell wrote: post #3
platinumrad wrote: post #2

Why do you think that increasing the barriers of entry into software work is a good idea?

Software that could kill. Medical, aerospace, driverless?

Software that could kill is a small subset of overall software being written, but software that can arguably ruin or at least cause moderate havoc on people's lives (via PII) encompasses maybe a majority of jobs in the software industry [citation needed].

I don't know that having a "bar exam" is the best way to approach that problem, either. I think laws need to be written that cripple companies that don't follow best security practices and the rest will largely follow.

Maybe that eventually results in a sort of "bar exam" that companies endorse in order to cover their asses, but what are the chances that it will end up being a positive thing for programmers and not a bureaucratic nightmare test that everybody knows is bs?

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