Uber and responsibility doesn't seem like a great cultural match.
Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
221–230 of 334 posts
Re: Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
I actually trust the waymo cars more than regular ones now when I'm on my bicycle or motorcycle. Granted they are absurdly "cautious drivers" and can be mildly annoying to be stuck behind in a car.
This strikes me as a risk factor that no one is really discussing. We talk about the dangers of Level 3/4 autonomy, where the driver is still responsible for the car, but autopilot is doing most of the work, leading to a bored/disengaged driver who's not ready to react when it's actually necessary. We don't hear as much pedestrians taking it for granted that a car will stop for them, right of way or no, because of th…
That habituation will work in the other direction too.
1: cars driving super cautiously will become the norm, so human driving behaviour that is normal now may become seen as abnormal and dangerous. I expect to see a lot more traffic tickets for driving 10mph above the speed limit, blowing through yellows, et cetera.
2: crashes will be increasingly blamed on the driver. Right now when a driver crashes into a pedestrian or cyclist, most of the time the driver is let off the hook relatively easily. But if it's an accident that a self-driving car would have avoided, the public will be seen as much more avoidable and the driver will be blamed.
There's also the factor that a majority of accidents are caused by a minority of drivers; people who think they are bad drivers are more likely to adopt self-driving cars. Sure there's a large dunning-kroger effect: 80% of drivers think they are above average, but the other 20% are probably really bad.
So I do expect the widespread presence of self-driving to make human drivers much better.
But as you said pedestrians and cyclists will likely become worse. I think it'll balance into many fewer fatalities, but we'll see...
Re: Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
There was a person at the wheel. That person wasn't paying full attention to the road. From the video of the crash, it looks like the woman at the wheel was looking at their phone. Why is no one acknowledging that this woman was responsible for taking over the wheel if necessary for any reason. When I have cruise control on, I take my feet off of the pedals and rest them on the floor. But if, say, a homeless person w…
Why is no one acknowledging that this woman was responsible for taking over the wheel if necessary for any reason. Nobody in the industry really believes safety drivers work, beyond the early point in testing where they're intervening regularly. It is widely known [1, 2, 3] that it's extremely difficult for humans to remain vigilant when monitoring systems for rare events. Airport baggage screening systems perform "t…
Even regardless of her lack of full attention, from the video it seems quite obvious a human driver would have failed to see the woman in time even with full alertness. The only question here, and why Uber is under scrutiny, is why a Lidar system which can "see in the dark" wasn't able to detect her and react in time.
Re: Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
#224Saying nothing about Google/Waymo, it appears they're allowed to continue? Their self-driving technology seems far more advanced, I think it would be unfair to punish all the players for the bad actions of a few. In particular, Uber seems to have been operating self-driving cars recklessly and in an attempt to "move fast and break things". When those things are people's lives, that's unacceptable. I'm all for interes…
There was a person at the wheel. That person wasn't paying full attention to the road. From the video of the crash, it looks like the woman at the wheel was looking at their phone. Why is no one acknowledging that this woman was responsible for taking over the wheel if necessary for any reason. When I have cruise control on, I take my feet off of the pedals and rest them on the floor. But if, say, a homeless person w…
>> And like 3-5 million other people a year, the homeless person walking across the street was killed in a car accident.
3-5 million people a year? Are you adding all road fatalities worldwide together here, including those in countries with fatality rates that are literally 100 times that of any developed country, and which are by causes completely unrelated to the kinds of problems autonomous cars try to solve?
The number of road fatalities in all of the US is close to 40K last year. Still a lot, but almost over 100 times less than the figure you quoted. The number of non-vehicle deaths (like pedestrians) is measured in the hundreds [1]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
Re: Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
#225Saying nothing about Google/Waymo, it appears they're allowed to continue? Their self-driving technology seems far more advanced, I think it would be unfair to punish all the players for the bad actions of a few. In particular, Uber seems to have been operating self-driving cars recklessly and in an attempt to "move fast and break things". When those things are people's lives, that's unacceptable. I'm all for interes…
>> Their self-driving technology seems far more advanced, I think it would be unfair to punish all the players for the bad actions of a few. It's very unlikely that Uber and Waymo have radically different technology. The two companies probably differe only in business and testing practices- i.e. the environments and the conditions in which they are willing to test their cars. Waymo simply seems to be more conscious a…
In the literature you see small margins because many of the things that really matter in practice (data quantity, data quality, engineering) aren't generally of academic interest.
Re: Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is no one acknowledging that this woman was responsible for taking over the wheel if necessary for any reason. Nobody in the industry really believes safety drivers work, beyond the early point in testing where they're intervening regularly. It is widely known [1, 2, 3] that it's extremely difficult for humans to remain vigilant when monitoring systems for rare events. Airport baggage screening systems perform "t…
Even regardless of her lack of full attention, from the video it seems quite obvious a human driver would have failed to see the woman in time even with full alertness. The only question here, and why Uber is under scrutiny, is why a Lidar system which can "see in the dark" wasn't able to detect her and react in time.
Human vision has much better dynamic range than the dashcam video they released.
Re: Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
This strikes me as a risk factor that no one is really discussing. We talk about the dangers of Level 3/4 autonomy, where the driver is still responsible for the car, but autopilot is doing most of the work, leading to a bored/disengaged driver who's not ready to react when it's actually necessary. We don't hear as much pedestrians taking it for granted that a car will stop for them, right of way or no, because of th…
What's your suggestion then? Making the front window reflective so pedestrians have no way of knowing whether or not there is a driver?
My suggestion for pedestrians is to treat cars like guns. Just as you assume a gun is loaded, you should assume a car does not see you. I see people stepping into crosswalks staring at their phones after barely glancing up to see the light has changed. They have no idea if the oncoming traffic is slowing/stopping for them. It's a problem now, and I think self-driving cars have the potential to make it worse (as, at the same time, they are making it better in other ways).
Re: Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, the roundabout rule is that a vehicle entering a roundabout must give way to any vehicle already on the roundabout, or a tram that is entering or approaching the roundabout. See the Australian Road Rules, Part 9: https://www.pcc.gov.au/uniform/Australian-Road-Rules-19March... If you are approaching the roundabout and someone enters it from your left before you get there, you have to give way to them .
Things like that may vary from country to country, though. In Austria, roundabouts do not have a special rule and therefore a car approaching the roundabout theoretically has the right of way. But pretty much any roundabout has a yield sign, I've never encountered one without a yield sign at the entrance. Doesn't mean that there can't be a roundabout that does not have one.
As you described, the default is to yield, and so the vehicle can always yield and signal its intention to do so by breaking slowly. And I agree, there may not always be a sign (a storm or driver could knock it over), so the default should always be to yield.
Re: Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
This strikes me as a risk factor that no one is really discussing. We talk about the dangers of Level 3/4 autonomy, where the driver is still responsible for the car, but autopilot is doing most of the work, leading to a bored/disengaged driver who's not ready to react when it's actually necessary. We don't hear as much pedestrians taking it for granted that a car will stop for them, right of way or no, because of th…
That habituation will work in the other direction too. 1: cars driving super cautiously will become the norm, so human driving behaviour that is normal now may become seen as abnormal and dangerous. I expect to see a lot more traffic tickets for driving 10mph above the speed limit, blowing through yellows, et cetera. 2: crashes will be increasingly blamed on the driver. Right now when a driver crashes into a pedestri…
Excellent points. Yes, I can see an increasing intolerance for reckless and inattentive driving as autonomous cars become more prevalent and set a good example.
Re: Arizona Government Suspends Uber's Self Driving Cars from Roads
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
There was a person at the wheel. That person wasn't paying full attention to the road. From the video of the crash, it looks like the woman at the wheel was looking at their phone. Why is no one acknowledging that this woman was responsible for taking over the wheel if necessary for any reason. When I have cruise control on, I take my feet off of the pedals and rest them on the floor. But if, say, a homeless person w…
Why is no one acknowledging that this woman was responsible for taking over the wheel if necessary for any reason. Nobody in the industry really believes safety drivers work, beyond the early point in testing where they're intervening regularly. It is widely known [1, 2, 3] that it's extremely difficult for humans to remain vigilant when monitoring systems for rare events. Airport baggage screening systems perform "t…
So when they tell me to open my luggage at the airport, it may be because they have just seen a fake knive or gun placed on the x-ray image by the system to enhance their attention? Amazing!