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Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

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Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#341

Post by vanderZwan »

jimmaswell wrote: post #327
vanderZwan wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even though legally they are in the right Even that is dubious. Law is interpreted by judges for this exact reason: people pushing it to extremes.

I don't see how a popup that asks for permission in clear and simple terms is dubious at all. I don't want to have to print out the terms and conditions, get them notarized with my signature on them, and snailmail them back to the company when I want to use an app's features in the future, but if explicitly consenting to a popup isn't good enough then I fear that's the path we'd be headed down.

> if explicitly consenting to a popup isn't good enough then I fear that's the path we'd be headed down.

If the pop-up does not adequately convey the consequences of agreeing, it cannot reasonably be considered a form of consent.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#342

Post by hnarn »

sah2ed wrote: post #70
hnarn wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like if you should quote a very inflammatory and controversial "quip" you should at least provide a source. Maybe I'm the only one on HN that hasn't heard about it, but even so, sources shouldn't be omitted.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg

So, do you feel it's irrelevant to mention that it was said in a chat conversation, in 2004 when Zuckerberg was 20 years old? I'm not saying that makes what he said completely fine, but it's not irrelevant for context.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#343

Post by xphilter »

inetknght wrote: post #232
xphilter wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer to think of it like “technical” permission (like obtaining the permission from android) and legal permission (aka consent). I doubt FB got consent.

I think this is a very good way of describing the issue. Unfortunately, there's also the little matter of EULAs.

Right. And judges have enforced those to the letter. But with GDPR and the like coming into play, I think judges will have to accept the reality that EULAs can’t give actual consent.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#344

Post by wilsonnb »

dredmorbius wrote: post #160
zodiac wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree! But first of all, the prompt shown in the article's screenshot was not hidden in a long ToS. Second of all, I agree that we should work towards solving the problem that overly-long ToSs represent. What I do not agree with is the assertion that, in the presence of an overlong-ToS, we allow people to click-through, then get outraged at the company for doing something they were allowed to do by the ToS.…

Tools which become ubiquitous or prerequisites for other services are not discretionary. Facebook is the Internet for many people, is required for authenticating by numerous services, and is how numerous groups and communities organise. As such, its terms and services as those of numerous other services, should be defined in a standard set of obligations, rights, and responsibilities, by law.

What services require Facebook for authentication? The only one I can think of is Tinder (not sure if that's actually the case, I've never used it) but I don't think a few non-essential services requiring a Facebook account makes it not discretionary.

If you needed a Facebook account to file a tax return or something, then I would agree that it's not discretionary.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#345

Post by [deleted] »

slivym wrote: post #198
anilakar wrote: post #83

I suspected this many years ago when familiar faces from our customers started to appear in the friend suggestion box. I've never installed the FB app on my phone, but our less privacy oriented customers probably have. What pisses me off is that while I can choose what information I share, I haven't given other people nor Facebook permission to read phone call logs that involve me.

Do you think you have the right to share with people your call logs without the permission of the people you were calling? I would say you do. So I don't see how you can reasonably object to someone sharing with Facebook the fact that they called you in their call log.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#346

Post by jimmaswell »

vanderZwan wrote: post #341
jimmaswell wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how a popup that asks for permission in clear and simple terms is dubious at all. I don't want to have to print out the terms and conditions, get them notarized with my signature on them, and snailmail them back to the company when I want to use an app's features in the future, but if explicitly consenting to a popup isn't good enough then I fear that's the path we'd be headed down.

> if explicitly consenting to a popup isn't good enough then I fear that's the path we'd be headed down. If the pop-up does not adequately convey the consequences of agreeing, it cannot reasonably be considered a form of consent.

If someone sells me a car, and I paint it pink, and they're mad after the fact because they hate pink, did I fail to adequately convey the consequences of their agreeing to sell me the car? I don't think so; they agreed to sell me the car and that should be enough.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#347

Post by sah2ed »

hnarn wrote: post #342
sah2ed wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg

So, do you feel it's irrelevant to mention that it was said in a chat conversation, in 2004 when Zuckerberg was 20 years old? I'm not saying that makes what he said completely fine, but it's not irrelevant for context.

I wasn't the one you originally replied to but it looks like you are shifting the goal posts here.

> Maybe I'm the only one on HN that hasn't heard about it, but even so, sources shouldn't be omitted.

You asked for sources and I merely provided one such source as "proof" that Zuck actually did use those words in the past.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#348

Post by kingofhdds »

saas_co_de wrote: post #297
kingofhdds wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, in fact, airlines have regulations, because big flying objects loaded with fuel are kinda seriously dangerous, and can kill (not in un*x console meaning of the word) lots of people at once. Very unlike social platforms, to be fair. If regulations were introduced because of users not knowing what's good and beautiful, believe me, IT industry would be the most regulated thing in the world.

> Very unlike social platforms a social media platform that can be used to organize and manipulate hundreds of millions of people globally is far more dangerous than any airplane.

Don't you think that this "organize and manipulate hundreds of millions of people globally" thing is a very blurry fear-laden sensationalist wording, which practically implies that social platforms possess some kind of hypnotic power to drive humans to do something on orders from secret circles?

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#349

Post by leereeves »

kingofhdds wrote: post #348
saas_co_de wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very unlike social platforms a social media platform that can be used to organize and manipulate hundreds of millions of people globally is far more dangerous than any airplane.

Don't you think that this "organize and manipulate hundreds of millions of people globally" thing is a very blurry fear-laden sensationalist wording, which practically implies that social platforms possess some kind of hypnotic power to drive humans to do something on orders from secret circles?

Not at all. People are rather easy to manipulate, if you control the flow of information. Hypnotic power is not required.

The formula is simple: promote emotionally powerful events that support your agenda, ignore events that inspire feelings counter to your agenda, deify supporters, demonize opponents, censor and ostracize anyone who speaks against the agenda.

That formula has led nations to war, sent innocent people to prison, changed laws, overthrown governments, led to acts of terror, and caused hundreds of millions (perhaps billions) of deaths throughout history.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#350

Post by squarefoot »

kolbe wrote: post #262
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pure Capitalists, whose values most of the larger companies are run under, care only about the profit. Sometimes negative PR brings additional profit, there is no remorse in such cases. Facebook's controlling minds don't care about you, they care about if there's reduction in profit [or profit generating ability].

You don't have to abstract this too much. Facebook's "controlling minds" are just one mind: Mark's. Facebook does what Zuckerberg wants it to do. And if he doesn't want to maximize profit, he doesn't have to.

In todays world there's no entity which would leave full control in a single person's hands, neither Facebook nor the US or any other non prehistoric government, although for obvious reasons the public needs to be given a recognizable figure which can be turned into a scapegoat when needed. Should Zuckerberg piss off his top investors, he would be sacked in no time.
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