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The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

bbc.com

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Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#41

Post by Retric »

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #37
retSava wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be the case, but the constant reminder of race is very weird to me. As in, it's very common to denote someone to be "black" or "white" or "hispanic" and so on. I can understand this to some extent when it comes to describing how someone looks (eg police warrant) but in most other contexts... it's just feels very strange with the obsession of what color/origin someone has/is.

Funny how centuries of race based slavery and discrimination will do that.

Most countries don't have a history of race based slavery. Rome, Inca, etc viewed conquest as the path to slavery. Even most American slaves where at the root captured by a different group in Africa rather than based on skin color.

The race to slavery connection was more an accident of history than any design. Early America had some black slave owners and they imported from Africa because Native Americans tended to die from disease or escape.

Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#42

Post by danharaj »

Lambdanaut wrote: post #32
voltooid wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engaging in discriminatory, derogatory and demeaning behaviour actively. That comes from hate. The experiences of the person featured in the linked article, that could only come from hate. I think people that oppose gay marriage do so because of hate. But found a neat little loophole out of being called hateful by claiming that they have no problem with gay people. My reasoning is this: taking any kind of stance on a…

As someone raised Southern Baptist but not currently identifying as so, I can attest that when I once peacefully opposed homosexuality, it was 100% out of a trust that God knew what he was doing and that I should trust him, despite my own personal ignorance. The belief that others can only oppose groups of people out of "hate" stems from a strong lack of empathy and understanding for people on the other side of the i…

That reduces hatred to a never applicable triviality.

Hatred at its core is causing others to suffer in service of the things that live in one's head. Emotions can be hateful, so can ideas.

Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#43

Post by zeveb »

nkrisc wrote: post #16
briandear wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people might not want giraffes allowed in movie theaters, that doesn’t mean those people hate giraffes. Disagreeing with someone isn’t hate.

Ok if we're using this bizarre analogy, it's as if you never even could tell if there was a giraffe in the movie theater or not, but if there was, you want it gone. When a gay couple gets married on the other side of the country, do you notice? Does your life change? If it's the mere idea of it you're opposed to, then that's bigotry, not some practical concern like a giraffe blocking your view of the screen.

> When a gay couple gets married on the other side of the country, do you notice? Does your life change?

The word 'marriage' doesn't mean in 2018 what in meant in 1918, or even in 1968, or 1993. In large part, that's a good thing (domestic violence is no longer legal spousal rape is no longer legal, married women don't have a kind of legal-child status), but it's also a bad thing (due to no-fault divorce laws, marriage can be terminated by one party at any time; marriage is no longer the cornerstone of a couple's life, but the capstone to their lives; there's no longer social support for a reliable, lifelong marriage).

Many people who oppose legal recognition of homosexual unions as marriages don't have animus against homosexuals, but rather nostalgia for the previous meanings of marriage. They believe that a stronger concept of marriage makes for a stronger society.

Personally, I think we ought to go all the way and abolish the legal concept of marriage entirely: it's a religious state, not a civil one, and thus not the business of the State. But I understand the concerns of those who worry about how a diverse society which has lost all respect for marriage will survive — I just think we're already there, so we might as well be honest about it.

Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#44

Post by saiya-jin »

quantummkv wrote: post #17

A better way to allegorize the Indian caste system would be the racism in USA. No one in urban centers or in the new generations is racist against black people. Go to the folks from the older generations and in the hinterlands and you will find that racism still exists somewhat. A similar trend is present in India. The new kids in urban centers don't care about caste. The old people in the villages and hinterlands? T…

> The new kids in urban centers don't care about caste.

Oh yes they do, maybe less than before, but its still present. To native, +-cast membership is usually very obvious.

When you are born into privilege, and you are told whole childhood that you are entitled to it and those less fortunate 'deserved' it by their actions in previous lives, it's hard thing to give it up, and say 'no, I deserve less'.

Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#45

Post by TheCoelacanth »

Retric wrote: post #41
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny how centuries of race based slavery and discrimination will do that.

Most countries don't have a history of race based slavery. Rome, Inca, etc viewed conquest as the path to slavery. Even most American slaves where at the root captured by a different group in Africa rather than based on skin color. The race to slavery connection was more an accident of history than any design. Early America had some black slave owners and they imported from Africa because Native Americans tended to d…

New York is not part of the Roman or Incan empires last time I checked.

Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#46

Post by creep »

Lambdanaut wrote: post #32
voltooid wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engaging in discriminatory, derogatory and demeaning behaviour actively. That comes from hate. The experiences of the person featured in the linked article, that could only come from hate. I think people that oppose gay marriage do so because of hate. But found a neat little loophole out of being called hateful by claiming that they have no problem with gay people. My reasoning is this: taking any kind of stance on a…

As someone raised Southern Baptist but not currently identifying as so, I can attest that when I once peacefully opposed homosexuality, it was 100% out of a trust that God knew what he was doing and that I should trust him, despite my own personal ignorance. The belief that others can only oppose groups of people out of "hate" stems from a strong lack of empathy and understanding for people on the other side of the i…

I agree with you, friend.

Most everyone understands that people are not their actions. You can believe a behavior is wrong without hating the person behaving in that way.

It's a very simple formulation.

Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#47

Post by creep »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #31
INvidiA wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the issue. If someone simply sees homosexuality as a something that isn't "approved by God" or something of that nature, and they in their minds are just going along with God's law, are they really hating something? I've heard many anti-gay marriage people say that they have no problem with gay people but that they just oppose gay marriage. Is that cognitive dissonance? Almost certainly, but is it hate? I…

You had just said it: they oppose the institute of marriage, which is not only a traditional way of announcing the union of two people (let's for a moment accept the fact that maybe marriage is only a Christian creation), but is also a legal way of exposing it. Now please tell me how opposing the gay marriage is not in any way a sign of hate towards gay people that bars them from certain legal liberties? You could tr…

Some believe that people who get abortions oppose the "institute" of life (since we don't know when life starts, we can't say it doesn't start before 9 months). Is it possible to oppose a practice one believes is barbaric without hating the person who is practicing it? Of course it is-- if you understand human nature. No one is their behavior-- so, the most logical thing is not to hate a person for a single element of their being. Since we can say that most people are logical, we can say that most people don't hate others on the basis of one element.

Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#48

Post by cscurmudgeon »

wmil wrote: post #36
mcguire wrote: post #30

The child of "college teachers" and a former "researcher in applied physics" at IIT is now a train conductor with the New York subway? This is a good thing?

Financially it's smarter than being a post-doc or untenured lecturer.

Any data to back that up? Really curious.

Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#49

Post by cscurmudgeon »

goutham2688 wrote: post #19
INvidiA wrote: post #5

These sort of class distinctions are much less pronounced in America, which is why so many oppressed or impoverished people from elsewhere yearn to travel here and make a new life. It's nice to hear about someone who was able to realize the American Dream and escape the class prejudice of their home country.

https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/when-caste-follows-you... Indians who are deemed lower caste are converting to Christianity to escape the tag.

Hilarious since Indian versions of Christianity have caste.

Re: The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

#50

Post by creep »

INvidiA wrote: post #9
ams6110 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called hate here, when for example a person regards homosexuality as immoral and opposes gay marriage. I've rarely heard anyone publicly claim that such people just have different social standards, or if they do, they are vilified for defending hate. Any time in history when one group has been oppressed by another, it's been considered normal by majority social standards of the time. When those standards change,…

But that's the issue. If someone simply sees homosexuality as a something that isn't "approved by God" or something of that nature, and they in their minds are just going along with God's law, are they really hating something? I've heard many anti-gay marriage people say that they have no problem with gay people but that they just oppose gay marriage. Is that cognitive dissonance? Almost certainly, but is it hate? I…

Hate is one of those blinding emotions/states of mind that causes people to deliberately sabotage the thing-hated. Simply opposing a practice cannot be said to be hate unless the hate is what is driving the opposition. Opposition is not sabotage, even though it may seem so to the one opposed.
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