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Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

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Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#231
post #224
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My knowledge in this area is limited, so maybe others can pipe in, but assuming massive amounts of data on millions (or most?) Facebook users is out in the wild, which cannot be 'put back': 1. how well can this be actually used currently to create a proper psychosocial(?) profile of an individual? What's the current state of the art? Any suggestions for books or papers to read on the matter? 2. do we have any idea of…

"how well can this be actually used currently to create a proper psychosocial(?) profile of an individual? What's the current state of the art? Any suggestions for books or papers to read on the matter?" I suspect quite poorly. It's 2018 and I've been hearing pitches and narratives to do with fancy targeting of advertisements and user profiling now for 22 years. And what do we have ? If I search for something obscure…

That's part of the reason I asked. Based on the ridiculously bad suggestions I'd often get (from search, netflix and the lik, etc.), it all seemed a bit too much hot air.

But a few things made me (sort of) change my mind over time, and worry more actively:

1. the ability to properly use the data available is a skill in itself. The fact that this 'new, non-private' internet is still relatively young (really just a decade, post-smartphone I'd say) could mean that most companies/governments simply didn't know yet how to properly use it. Considering the many examples of the slowness with which organizations tend to adapt, that doesn't seem unlikely.

2. There's a huge difference between the data available, and the targeting achievable pre-smartphone, and post-smartphone. On top of that, I distinctly remember that throughout most of my youth (so up until a few years before world-wide Facebook) it was still very much a 'default' attitude to be very careful about your personal information online. Not quite the "don't go into chatrooms" of my childhood, but still the "don't use your real name, ideally, on ".

3. We've made quite a number of advances already in storing and analyzing 'big data', from what I understand. And a decade or two of research on this new world of personal internet data must have led to some significant advances, no? I mean, so far we've gotten really good at manipulating people with whatever new technology entered the scene. Just not right away, necessarily.

4. from personal experience, and conversations with people who do/did targeted advertising on Facebook, it really does seem shockingly easy to target specific messages to specific groups. I find it hard to believe that this does not fundamentally change the whole game of manipulation, compared to things like TV and newspapers. Hell, 'old fashioned' direct marketing / door to door sales is perhaps a precursor of all this. I remember reading quite a while back how advanced the techniques were to decide what neighborhoods to visit or snailmail-spam for particular products or services. If companies were willing to spend the amount of money necessary for that, it must have some effect. Being able to target essentially large parts of the entire world in that same way has got to be at least somewhat more powerful, which is scary enough maybe.

I'm not sure of any of this, though. Just thinking out loud and very curious to hear what others think (although ideally I'd also love some suggestions of where to find the best research/articles on the matter).

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#232

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

I prefer to think of it like “technical” permission (like obtaining the permission from android) and legal permission (aka consent). I doubt FB got consent.

I think this is a very good way of describing the issue.

Unfortunately, there's also the little matter of EULAs.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#233
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal has a desktop app nowadays and Telegram still requires a phone number to use. While Signal's QR code pairing method is more awkward than Telegram's SMS one, it also prevents your account from getting hacked remotely in Iran by stealing your SMS messages: https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/49976/intelligence/tele...

But with Signal you still need a smartphone (i.e: very bad for privacy); while with telegram you don't. Also, with Telegram you can protect the account with a password, so you can use a burner phone, literally once, and then forget about it.

With Telegram you have no privacy - no one uses the e2ee (secret chats). Perhaps because the desktop client doesn't support the feature, and even if it did, secret chats wouldn't sync across devices.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#234

I think we are talking differently about this permission concept. Legally yes, they had permission. But the fact that they used those dark ux patterns to request that permission should not be forgotten. Even though legally they are in the right, we as users should make this fact irrelevant and just abandon the platform. Let them be right, let them win the argument but lose the battle with the general public.

More than likely youre right. Your statement brings me a curiousity:

What the legal precedence is for UX patterns considered deceptive enough to be intentionally malicious?

The best I could find was a settlement with linkedin in 2015: https://www.fastcodesign.com/3051906/after-lawsuit-settlemen...

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatsapp still sends (for now) way less data than Facebook and also has much better security. I wonder how long it will continue.

WhatsApp sends the most important one, your social graph aka contact list and how often and when you interact with whom. I also assume the content of the messages you send and receive can be read and monitored.

> I also assume the content of the messages you send and receive can be read and monitored.

Whatsapp uses the Signal protocol for message encryption[0], so they ostensibly cannot read your messages. They probably have a good handle on who you talk to and when, though.

[0] https://signal.org/blog/whatsapp-complete/

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#237
If you haven't already installed Signal on your phone, please go and do so. To have alternatives to Facebook/W/I we need to build up network effects. Pretty easy to convince tech people to do this, and it would be a good start for getting Signal in as a replacement.

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#239
“Privacy means people know what they’re signing up for. In plain English, and repeatedly. That’s what it means. I’m an optimist. I believe people are smart. And some people want to share more data than other people do. Ask them. Ask them every time. Make them tell you to stop asking them if they’re tired of you asking them. Let them know precisely what you’re going to do with their data. That’s what we think.” — Steve Jobs, 2010 WSJ AllThingsD Conference

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo&app=desktop

Transcript: https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2018/03/25/steve-jobs-user-...

Recent article: https://qz.com/1236322/apples-steve-jobs-tried-to-warn-faceb...

Re: Facebook denies it collects call and SMS data from phones without permission

#240

If you haven't already installed Signal on your phone, please go and do so. To have alternatives to Facebook/W/I we need to build up network effects. Pretty easy to convince tech people to do this, and it would be a good start for getting Signal in as a replacement.

Is signal decentralized? If it is decentralized, how is the network effect built? (Is everyone isolated on their server with a subset of all signal users, or is there a way to communicate with someone using another signal sever?).
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