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Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

nautil.us

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Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#141

Post by lucb1e »

vatueil wrote: post #114
lucb1e wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, how do you drop: - Android (iOS is the only alternative, and that's much worse in terms of openness) - Maps (OSM, Apple and others don't have the same amount of business information) - Search (I have DDG as default, but find myself returning at least once a week to google search because none of the other search engines will give good results) - Images (Bing and DDG are even more terrible at images th…

That's actually the same point the parent comment by thriftwy was making. The two of you are not in disagreement. But as for your argument, didn't you just list notable alternatives for most Google products? To the extent that the competitors may be less attractive (though plenty of people say they prefer iOS, Bing, DDG, etc.), that just emphasizes how useful Google's products are. Most of them can even be used witho…

Oh, wow, I indeed misread the parent comment completely. My bad!

> Most of them can even be used without a Google account, too.

Sure, but that doesn't take away any tracking as far as I know. Perhaps on paper in certain jurisdictions, but I doubt it truly is thrown away.

> It's strange to talk about the value Google services contribute as a bad thing.

The value they provide is not a bad thing, it's how they monetize it. I think I am misinterpreting what you mean here, though.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#142

Post by dudul »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #57
dudul wrote: post #34

The main difference from my point of view, as a Google and a non-Facebook user, is that Google actually provides useful services. From GMail, to Maps, Drive, etc. Facebook (as I see it at least) provides zero value. It creates toxic echo-chambers and countless studies have proven again and again that it makes people miserable.

Facebook provides a ton of a value to lots of people. In many cases its their entire social circle and how they communicate with them. Just because it doesn't create value for you or I doesn't mean it creates value.

I knew somebody would say that. And that's why my comment is sprinkled with "IMO", "from my point of view" etc.

Now, is it really a good service to help people manage their "social circle" in this manner? Not according to me.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#143

Post by hueving »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #139
drawkbox wrote: post #11

Your ISP tracking your every move is scarier than all of them after the ISP privacy bill passed. At least Facebook and Google give you something for it and you can route around them if you desire. No routing around ISPs unless you use a VPN but even then they are blocking those. Broadband/cable/telcos capture everything you do and can now sell that information and do[1]. That bill was the pre-cursor to removing net n…

I've been forwarding all outgoing connections on port 80 (and a selection of other commonly-unencrypted ports) through a VPN (in the router) for a while now - but leaving all other ports (including most importantly 443) connecting directly. It feels like a good compromise between privacy and speed.

What router are you using? I would like to do this for my parents but I don't want a full blown pfsense box as a requirement.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#144

Post by LeoPanthera »

hueving wrote: post #143
LeoPanthera wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been forwarding all outgoing connections on port 80 (and a selection of other commonly-unencrypted ports) through a VPN (in the router) for a while now - but leaving all other ports (including most importantly 443) connecting directly. It feels like a good compromise between privacy and speed.

What router are you using? I would like to do this for my parents but I don't want a full blown pfsense box as a requirement.

...I have bad news. :)

It's a PC Engines APU2 running pfSense.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#145

Post by dmytrish »

fantispug wrote: post #63
drawkbox wrote: post #11

Your ISP tracking your every move is scarier than all of them after the ISP privacy bill passed. At least Facebook and Google give you something for it and you can route around them if you desire. No routing around ISPs unless you use a VPN but even then they are blocking those. Broadband/cable/telcos capture everything you do and can now sell that information and do[1]. That bill was the pre-cursor to removing net n…

On https sites there's not a lot ISPs can track without breaking encryption. With shared IPs they may not even know the domain for certain (although as IPv6 takes off it will be easier to map IP to domain).

Https requests still send the domain name unencrypted in the SNI extension of TLS [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_Name_Indication

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#146

Post by [deleted] »

hueving wrote: post #143
LeoPanthera wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been forwarding all outgoing connections on port 80 (and a selection of other commonly-unencrypted ports) through a VPN (in the router) for a while now - but leaving all other ports (including most importantly 443) connecting directly. It feels like a good compromise between privacy and speed.

What router are you using? I would like to do this for my parents but I don't want a full blown pfsense box as a requirement.

[deleted]

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#147

Post by libdjml »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #139
drawkbox wrote: post #11

Your ISP tracking your every move is scarier than all of them after the ISP privacy bill passed. At least Facebook and Google give you something for it and you can route around them if you desire. No routing around ISPs unless you use a VPN but even then they are blocking those. Broadband/cable/telcos capture everything you do and can now sell that information and do[1]. That bill was the pre-cursor to removing net n…

I've been forwarding all outgoing connections on port 80 (and a selection of other commonly-unencrypted ports) through a VPN (in the router) for a while now - but leaving all other ports (including most importantly 443) connecting directly. It feels like a good compromise between privacy and speed.

If you’ve got a VPN, why not everything?

You’re currently leaking a ton of data via DNS and HTTP certs, aren’t you?

You are indeed protected against active content injection, but that’s rarely the problem with a for-pay ISP

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#148

Post by jonathanyc »

bitmapbrother wrote: post #126
jonathanyc wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to people with Android phones. Google Play Services is an opaque blob that cannot be uninstalled and is necessary for nearly all Android apps. And it is constantly uploading your location minute-by-minute to Google for use in things like their "Popular Times" card on search results and who knows what else.

When you set up an Android phone you have the option of not using Google Services. Secondly, you can disable Google Play Services anytime you want. You can also turn off location history and tracking anytime you want so I'm not sure where you get the idea that none of these services or apps can be turned off or disabled.

I am not sure what comment you think you are replying to. Google Play Services cannot be uninstalled on a stock Android phone, like I said, only disabled; and disabling it means the vast majority of Android apps won’t work, like I said. These are facts that anyone can verify for themselves; you merely claiming otherwise doesn’t change this.

You also seem to be confusing Google’s various services with Google Play Services specifically.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#149

Post by libdjml »

AbacusAvenger wrote: post #64
fantispug wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On https sites there's not a lot ISPs can track without breaking encryption. With shared IPs they may not even know the domain for certain (although as IPv6 takes off it will be easier to map IP to domain).

They can track DNS lookups though. I use DNSCrypt to proxy all that traffic through elsewhere. But that just means I'm trusting some other third party to not log my DNS queries.

I use dnscrypt also, figuring that even though that puts my browsing traffic in another persons hands, they can’t easily correlate it with my address, phone number, name, etc etc

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#150

Post by gerash »

I personally prefer Google over FB. I haven't deleted my FB account because that's my contact list of some sort but I am not very active. I guess I prefer the Snapchat model where what you post doesn't stick around forever. I'm not fond of the aggressive, greedy bro attitude of FB in moving fast and breaking things. On the other hand I use Google services all the time.

Folks whining about data collection should realize Google hasn't decided to be an ad company, it's just they have succeeded monetizing it better than their more recent cloud offering and in future their hardware business. So it's not an ad company because it does everything top down based on what would make ad business succeed. It's just that the search product is popular and placing ads next to it pays well. If you're complaining about seeing ads and are not using the paid GSuite version or non google services for email for example, it means you don't care enough and perhaps should stop whining about a free service you've opted to use.

This is also somehow true about FB. they're trying to monetize their Oculus business but it doesn't pay as much as the ad business I guess.

IMO the solution to data collection isn't to completely stop it as it'll make the services less tailored to individuals and dumber. Instead I'd rather the data be collected but under full control of the individual. So I can decide who gets to access it and for how long.

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