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Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

nautil.us

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Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#41

Post by wutbrodo »

AlexCoventry wrote: post #15

Google is scarier in terms of its capabilities, but it's starting from a more solid ethical foundation.

I feel like this is a piece that people elide pretty frequently. The Google founders have spoken about tons of things over the years, and consistently come across as being principled and passionate, even if your moral foundation is different from theirs. Zuckerberg, on the other hand, set the tone with the "dumb fucks" IM and has only recently gotten better at not projecting contempt for his users. I honestly couldn't even pin down what his ethical foundations are, given that they seem to swing with the tides of public opinion and what PR message is currently convenient ("connect the whole world! every interaction is a good one!" --> the more recent "maybe some social interactions are bad, only 'good' ones from now on!").

It's of course entirely possible that this simply means that the Google guys are better at personal PR than Facebook is, but at the very least it helps explain why the perception of each is different.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#42

Post by jamiequint »

Malarkey73 wrote: post #14

I know Google is profiling me and harvesting my data. But it's not using me to harvest my friends information. I know Google is targeting ads at me - and they maybe AB tested. But those ads are from real companies or organisations - they aren't fake bots or astroturf groups algorithmically designed to tell me what I want to hear. I'm sceptically watchful of Google, I feel I have a social contract with them where they…

Neither is Facebook since 2014 when they locked down Open Graph access.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#44

Post by JumpCrisscross »

drawkbox wrote: post #11

Your ISP tracking your every move is scarier than all of them after the ISP privacy bill passed. At least Facebook and Google give you something for it and you can route around them if you desire. No routing around ISPs unless you use a VPN but even then they are blocking those. Broadband/cable/telcos capture everything you do and can now sell that information and do[1]. That bill was the pre-cursor to removing net n…

> they are blocking those

Do any American ISPs routinely Blick VPNs?

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#46

Post by lucb1e »

greggarious wrote: post #6

It's a lot simpler to avoid Google though. I've been using DuckDuckGo for a while now and the switch was simple. There's no network effect like with Facebook, hence less ennui about it.

It's the opposite for me. I don't use Facebook or any of their subs (like instagram), but google is very difficult to get rid of: youtube and android have no viable replacements, maps has some unique selling points, and I notice that I even return to the search multiple times a week because I can't find something using ddg, bing, or another search engine. And of course half my email ends up in gmail inboxes because it's either to friends (gmail) or companies (google apps for business, or whatever it's called -- see mx records of half the companies you deal with).

Edit: oh yeah and of course analytics + youtube embedding + ads + like button (when still in use) + google maps embedding makes it very difficult to get around as well, even outside of directly using their products yourself...

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#47

Post by kylek »

adam12 wrote: post #40
drawkbox wrote: post #11

Your ISP tracking your every move is scarier than all of them after the ISP privacy bill passed. At least Facebook and Google give you something for it and you can route around them if you desire. No routing around ISPs unless you use a VPN but even then they are blocking those. Broadband/cable/telcos capture everything you do and can now sell that information and do[1]. That bill was the pre-cursor to removing net n…

Thanks for reminding me about this. I'm seriously thinking about getting a VPN subscription again.

Be very weary- seems many (most? all?) are not the most trustworthy. Look into rolling your own setup.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#48

Post by sykh »

joe_the_user wrote: post #26
sykh wrote: post #8

What is scary is the unregulated way in which massive amounts of data can be used to sway public opinion so easily. What is even scarier than this is the way in which those in power can use massive amounts of data to sway public opinion without oversight. The very notion of a republican form of government may end up needing to be reanalyzed. Forget concentrating on Google or Facebook. There is a larger concern. If mu…

The framing of the situation is kind of twisted imo. If we talking about politics, it seems entirely reasonable that a politician would want know what their constituents were thinking about, would tell their constituents what the constituents wanted to here and go to Washington and do what they promised. That's democracy - obviously, this democracy isn't in very good shape. But it's hard claim to that having a very f…

I'd agree with the degradation of education system you brought up but even well educated people are prone to being nudged. In the past there was a diversity of competing news reporting. In the U.S. there has been massive consolidation in ownership of media. The sources of information are becoming fewer and the targeting of information is causing people to exist in news bubbles.

As you point out we have anit-vaxers, pizza-gate, etc. and I think this is the result of people existing in news bubbles. Curated content designed to maximize dopamine, anger, fear, etc. This makes it easier to manipulate. Think of all the people who got angry, fearful when Obama suggested having talks with Kim Jon Un and who now are happy that Trump has suggested holding talks with Kim Jon Un. People are prone to this sort of hypocrisy. They most likely aren't even aware of it.

I'm not opposed to gaining a fine-grained understanding of constituent needs as such. What I do oppose is a fine grained understanding of constituent needs so that a message can be crafted to increase the chance that a policy gets enacted when that policy has nothing to do with constituent needs. The information does not appear to being used for the good but rather for the enrichment, empowerment of well connected people.

The public at large is an informational battleground in which the victor achieves power. We are pawns in a game and the purpose is not the public good. This is dangerous if people don't realize this.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#49

Post by jonathanyc »

Malarkey73 wrote: post #14

I know Google is profiling me and harvesting my data. But it's not using me to harvest my friends information. I know Google is targeting ads at me - and they maybe AB tested. But those ads are from real companies or organisations - they aren't fake bots or astroturf groups algorithmically designed to tell me what I want to hear. I'm sceptically watchful of Google, I feel I have a social contract with them where they…

I sure as hell don't think my Grandma or Dad would have realized that Google's dark pattern[1] "opt-out" dialogs asking if they want to "make Android better" actually were asking for permission to send their location on a minute-by-minute basis to Google. How do you think Google populates their "Popular Times" card on search results?[2] Do you believe that even a simple majority of people going to a hospital, say, for some embarassing infection or a psych eval realize that the fact that they are there is going to be stored permanently on a Google server?

Google for me is the company that epitomizes the idea of false consent justifying near-unlimited data collection and permanent retention. If the man on the street is not aware of what he's agreeing to when he buys an Android phone in a meaningful sense, it is not consent in any meaningful sense.

We as people in tech might be aware. We might even be fashionably cynical in trying to rationalize our awareness of Google's tricks as a "social contract." But with knowledge comes responsibility.

[1]: https://darkpatterns.org/ [2]: Seems to appear/not appear based on opaque conditions.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#50

Post by drawkbox »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #44
drawkbox wrote: post #11

Your ISP tracking your every move is scarier than all of them after the ISP privacy bill passed. At least Facebook and Google give you something for it and you can route around them if you desire. No routing around ISPs unless you use a VPN but even then they are blocking those. Broadband/cable/telcos capture everything you do and can now sell that information and do[1]. That bill was the pre-cursor to removing net n…

> they are blocking those Do any American ISPs routinely Blick VPNs?

Not outright but they definitely mess with VPNs. Before net neutrality Cox for instance blocked VPNs quite a bit [1], they are holding off for now, but with net neutrality gone expect it to return. Now that they have to inspect traffic for slow lanes, they'll just put VPNs throttled down at a minimum.

> 2003—Cox and Comcast block VPNs: Back in the early internet, both Comcast and Cox Communications placed bans on Virtual Private Networks (VPNs). This was before VPNs became as ubiquitous as they are now. Back then, the only people who really used VPNs were doing so to access a work computer remotely. Which made Cox and Comcast’s choices to block them even weirder.

[1] https://lifehacker.com/what-happens-when-broadband-companies...

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