Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark • Hacker News Board

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#21

Post by c1sc0 » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 9:33 AM UTC

tumult wrote: post #4

Is it just me, or has 'the news' gotten worse over time? I entirely stopped following news and news media about a year ago. I'm always a little frightened by it when I see any of it poke through in places I still visit, like HN.

It's not just you. Political correctness, 'showing both sides of the debate' and editorializing have made the news far worse than it ever was in recent years. We urgently need news that delivers the facts, and only the facts. Maybe some distributed yet structured collaborative effort like Wikipedia for news?

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#22

Post by riffer » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 10:35 AM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #19

So, Craigslist is getting mischaracterized and demonized the same way that Google is. I'm tired of people lamenting these sorts of shenanigans. I'd like to hear recommendations as to what we can do to mitigate the bullshit. As people who have an understanding of tech and disruption why aren't we more effective at defending disruptive techs against those who wish to see them tarnished or destroyed? Shouldn't we be doi…

The key is to make things that are so indispensable to your customers and/or users that they will speak up to defend you when you are attacked.

In that sense, the business principle of it being better to have a few customers who really love you versus many customers who are lukewarm is similar to the political reality that a well-organized but small special interest will run all over the collective good.

There is really a double benefit because part of the way incumbents defend against disrupters is to go after their weakest point. Who is going to vocally defend Craigslist's erotic services section? How many online media enterprises even have a weaker point than that? It is not a coincidence.

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#23

Post by masklinn » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 11:16 AM UTC

blahedo wrote: post #14

masklinn wrote: post #12

> Yes, prostitution is illegal. It long has been Uh? Is it? Is prostitution actually illegal in the US or just streetwalking, or brothels, stuff like that? "Networks"?

According to Superfreakonomics, prostitution was mostly legal in the US until the early 20th century---its prohibition was part of the same movement that brought us Prohibition and women's suffrage.

Wow, there really are areas where the US suck hard.

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#24

Post by dagw » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 11:21 AM UTC

flatulent1 wrote: post #15

credo wrote: post #3

Apologists for Craig's list haven't been able to answer questions regarding sex trafficking on Craig's list and seem to think that their best defense is in attacking everyone who raises questions. The part about everyone hating Newmark and his work because "He doesn’t do it to get rich" and because he is a disruptor who kills classified ad revenues is amusing. All the recent hoopla is over a CNN interview and afaik l…

Most of the print activities that share corporate ownership with CNN are probably under Time. Here's a link to the Time-Warner businesses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assets_owned_by_Time_Wa... As far as hurting newspapers goes, don't measure it by what Craigslist takes in. Some of the would-be paying newsprint advertisers are getting exposure on Craigslist for free, and of course papers still see that as da…

Please read through that wikipedia link you posted and list all the newspapers you find. I think you'll agree it's a very short list.

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#25

Post by knowtheory » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 11:33 AM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #20

knowtheory wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

uh... in what manner are the women's rights movement connected to the tea totallers and other moralists? (that's not a rhetorical question, i have never heard of any such connection, but i am certainly willing to admit that i am not an expert in that period of history)

They're not necessarily required to be connected, but as a historical matter there's some overlap, especially in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. One strain is a certain kind of social progressivism, which sought to clean up social ills: abolish slavery, abolish drunkenness, achieve equality, improve literacy, etc. So a bunch of the early suffragettes were also active in the temperance and abolitionist movemen…

Sure, the 1st, 2nd and purported 3rd wave feminists all have different takes on gender roles and society.

But given what i know about the 1st wave feminists and the suffragettes, i'm surprised to hear tell that there was involvement that would be worth mentioning (in the sense of the entire movement) any more than you could claim that all republicans are pro-life, or that all democrats are pro-business.

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#26

Post by zephyrfalcon » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 12:28 PM UTC

markstansbury wrote: post #10

It's nothing more than a sensational story: product you are comfortable and familiar with is secretly a tool of sex and human trafficking. That's almost the perfect evening news. Of course they'll run it. People eat it up. It has nothing to do with disruption or ad revenue or conspiracies against human progress; aside, of course, from the tangential fact that it's a familiar product because of those features. It's ju…

That's part of it, but old media like CNN and the New York Times are losing revenue because of Craigslist (among other things); I doubt it's a coincidence that they are targeting them.

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#27

Post by thegeezer3 » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 12:37 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #17

tumult wrote: post #4

Is it just me, or has 'the news' gotten worse over time? I entirely stopped following news and news media about a year ago. I'm always a little frightened by it when I see any of it poke through in places I still visit, like HN.

I don't implicitly trust any news organization (not even the BBC) - but there are a handful of journalists who I believe to have extremely high levels of personal integrity and while I might not always agree with their opinions at least I believe that what they are saying is their honestly expressed opinions. Unfortunately for me only a handful of journalists fall into this category and it has literally taken years (…

re: not trusting the BBC - smart move. I'm from England and lots of people regard it as the most unbiased source out there, that and the guardian but if you step back and look critically at them you realise just how bad things are. I'd advise anyone to swingby medialens.org and read some of their articles and buy their books, especially their new one. Unblievable stuff.

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#28

Post by raganwald » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 1:01 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #12

> Yes, prostitution is illegal. It long has been Uh? Is it? Is prostitution actually illegal in the US or just streetwalking, or brothels, stuff like that? "Networks"?

I have no idea what the laws are in the various US states, but up here in Ontario prostitution is perfectly legal. I'm shaky on this, but I believe that the chauvinist porker argument used to be that the law is unable to distinguish a prostitute from a mistress.

While the act of exchanging services for compensation is legal in Ontario, there are laws that criminalize various aspects of running a prostitution business: Solicitation, living off the avails of prostitution, keeping a common bawdy house, and so forth.

We have our own similar debate: Various printed "free" papers include big sections of erotic services classifieds, and there has been much argument as to whether the laws against solicitation really apply to advertising.

One argument is that the laws against solicitation were written up to prevent streetwalking, and classifieds help take prostitutes off the street, so they are actually a public good.

Again, this is my understanding of the situation in Ontario, and I present the argument in favour of classifieds purely for the sake of promoting discussion.

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#29

Post by machrider » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 1:04 PM UTC

enjo wrote: post #13

masklinn wrote: post #12

> Yes, prostitution is illegal. It long has been Uh? Is it? Is prostitution actually illegal in the US or just streetwalking, or brothels, stuff like that? "Networks"?

Depends on the state. I believe prostitution is only "legal" in Nevada, and only then in highly regulated Brothels in mostly rural counties.

I was going to point out that it's legal in RI, too, but I guess it just got outlawed last year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Rhode_Island

Re: Jeff Jarvis on the Real Reason the Media is Going After Craig Newmark

#30

Post by woodall » Mon, Sep 06, 2010, 1:35 PM UTC

tumult wrote: post #4

Is it just me, or has 'the news' gotten worse over time? I entirely stopped following news and news media about a year ago. I'm always a little frightened by it when I see any of it poke through in places I still visit, like HN.

There is a good movie called "The Network". It is about a news corporation, and what they will sacrifice in order to get ratings. It is a bit old but the message of the movie is timeless.

One of the many great quotes:

Diana Christensen: I watched your 6 o'clock news today; it's straight tabloid. You had a minute and a half of that lady riding a bike naked in Central Park; on the other hand, you had less than a minute of hard national and international news. It was all sex, scandal, brutal crime, sports, children with incurable diseases, and lost puppies. So, I don't think I'll listen to any protestations of high standards of journalism when you're right down on the streets soliciting audiences like the rest of us. Look, all I'm saying is if you're going to hustle, at least do it right.

[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074958/