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Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

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Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#351

Post by syshum »

pjc50 wrote: post #302
tajen wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes it can. You have to dismiss massive amounts of male testimonies to say that consent has never ever been removed after the fact. Reasoning recursively: To dismiss males’ testimonials, you’d need to take girls’ words at face value, which, in itself, demonstrates that girls’ words are taken at face value by a lot of people in society, hence the recurring massive problem of false convictions.

The idea that there's a recurring massive problem of false convictions for rape is bizarre. In most countries it's extremely difficult to get alleged rape prosecuted in the first place and the conviction rate is low. I'm not going to dispute that it might have happened in some cases but it's a comparatively rare problem. (Also, I'm going to assume you're not a native English speaker - the contrasting group nouns shou…

>The idea that there's a recurring massive problem of false convictions for rape is bizarre

You are talking convictions, the OP seems to be talking Accusations and where the latest trend is to gain a conviction in the court of public opinion and to inflict punishment outside of a judicial system

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#352

Post by zombieprocesses »

quotemstr wrote: post #68

I am fucking sick and fucking tired of people interfering with the free choice of individuals in any effort to "fix" society and "help" people. Lawmakers and advocates, have some epistemic humility and acknowledge that your own perspective may be mistaken. Not everything is oppression. Not every activity is injustice. Sometimes, people just fucking disagree.

> I am fucking sick and fucking tired of people interfering with the free choice of individuals in any effort to "fix" society and "help" people.

What is shocking is that it is the liberals who are now pushing for more censorship, more control and less individual freedom.

Growing up, it was usually the conservatives/religious who wanted rap, violent video games, blasphemy, etc banned and censored. And their argument was to "protect children, women and society". Now, the push for censorship and control is being spearheaded by the liberals. And just like with the conservatives, it is to "protect children, women and society".

What a sorry state of affairs we are in right now. So disappointing.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#353

Post by mseebach »

SeeDave wrote: post #117
DannyBee wrote: post #44

This is not surprising, but sad. Years ago, i was dragged (i was the only engineer in the local office) into a whitehouse (or maybe it was state department, i can't remember) sponsored working group on online sex trafficking. The non-profits dedicated to fighting this, while seemingly well-intentioned, were completely and totally unwilling to see any other perspective or try to find shared ground. It was scorched ear…

In defense of the "scorched earth approach or nothing" folks: from my perspective... it's a completely and totally human response to faceless, blameless, unapproachable (from their perspective) perpetrators and facilitators of systematic abuse and exploitation of innocent and vulnerable people. If you've ever felt frustrated at an IVR system for routine tasks such as banking, restaurant reservations, canceling a gym…

> In defense of the "scorched earth approach or nothing" folks: from my perspective... it's a completely and totally human response to faceless, blameless, unapproachable (from their perspective) perpetrators and facilitators of systematic abuse and exploitation of innocent and vulnerable people.

Yes, the instinct is understandable, but by the time we're putting NGO experts in government-sponsored working groups for the purpose of drafting legislation, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that we're expecting something that rises (high!) above mere instinct. Otherwise, we can (almost, somewhat melodramatic exaggeration) just let mobs with pitchforks take care of business and save a ton of effort.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#354

Post by syshum »

Noos wrote: post #311
jrs235 wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume things got worse because cowardly assholes are now allowed to treat the prostitutes disrespectfully. Before, the assholes that were afraid of the law wouldn't risk going to a prostitute. Now that the law won't hurt them, they go and are demanding disrespectful assholes. Just a guess. Edit: law abiding != kind, respectful, or moral

It got worse because no one wants to be a prostitute, and there has always been a strong coercive element to women entering that profession. When you legalize, you increase demand while the supply is still capped, so coercion rises to compensate.

>It got worse because no one wants to be a prostitute, and there has always been a strong coercive element to women entering that profession.

it is factually wrong that "no one wants", it would be more accurate to say "very few"

But this also holds true for many occupations, very few people want to be toilet cleaners, or pick up trash, or really work at all. So the same "coercive element" could be said (and has been said) to drive people to enter any field of employment making all work for wages "coercive" by nature.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#355

Post by AlexC04 »

flamedoge wrote: post #61
dahdum wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’ve already started banning all the subs about escorts, prostitution, sugar daddies, etcetera today in response. Also subs like BeerTrade, BazaarMarkets , and other marketplaces. Say goodbye to an era. I’m sure many more will get the axe over time.

decentralized network can't come soon enough. I foresee YC, Reddit, Youtube, FB, and alike get supplanted by technology that has no ownership.

The problem with a decentralized network is that bad actors with disproportionate resources can flood the system.

Consider Russia & Cambridge Analytica - they would put hundreds and thousands of people on creating propaganda. There is no "solve" for well resourced bad actors usurping the decentralized system.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#356

Post by wu-ikkyu »

hellofunk wrote: post #343
telesilla wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not end sex trafficking but legalising prostitution lowers harm levels on workers, but allowing them to seek medical care and police protection without risk of incarceration. There is no down-side to legalisation as many would say for drugs, as it allows problems to have legal solutions.

I'm not in disagreement with you about legalization of prostitution in general, but with regards specifically to sex trafficking, there is much evidence from several countries that legalization actually makes sex trafficking worse -- most likely due to increased demand for a service anyone can enjoy legally.

Could you cite some of this evidence?

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#357

Post by shamaku »

quotemstr wrote: post #68

I am fucking sick and fucking tired of people interfering with the free choice of individuals in any effort to "fix" society and "help" people. Lawmakers and advocates, have some epistemic humility and acknowledge that your own perspective may be mistaken. Not everything is oppression. Not every activity is injustice. Sometimes, people just fucking disagree.

Shut up and enjoy your rights. /sarcasm

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#358

Post by at-fates-hands »

anigbrowl wrote: post #131
SeeDave wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In defense of the "scorched earth approach or nothing" folks: from my perspective... it's a completely and totally human response to faceless, blameless, unapproachable (from their perspective) perpetrators and facilitators of systematic abuse and exploitation of innocent and vulnerable people. If you've ever felt frustrated at an IVR system for routine tasks such as banking, restaurant reservations, canceling a gym…

Great, like the trade is going to suddenly end. All they've achieved is 'out of sight, out of mind.' I'm quite annoyed about this, both because it affects numerous friends of mine who are sex workers and are now scrambling to find alternatives to working on the street, where they're far less safe, and on a more pedestrian level because I met my wife on a Craigslist date years ago. Life is too short to make excuses fo…

> Great, like the trade is going to suddenly end. All they've achieved is 'out of sight, out of mind.'

I had the same reaction to this. Shutting down one avenue, just pushes these people back into the shadows where its going to be a LOT harder to track down and find them. With CL being up, it was public, traceable and arrests could be made discretely and out of public view.

Re: Craigslist takes personals sections offline in response to FOSTA

#360

Post by syshum »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #246
syshum wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I really wish that I could come forward with a solution to the online sex trafficking problem. Step 1. End Prohibition of Sex Work Step 2. Stop Diverting Police Resources to enforcing laws on what consenting Adults do on their own time (both Prostitution and Drugs) Step 3. Stop Criminalizing Speech driving to further and further under ground were it is no longer tracable at all The "scorched earth" groups are in no…

> Step 2. Stop Diverting Police Resources to enforcing laws > on what consenting Adults do on their own time (both > Prostitution and Drugs) But society has rules, it's the grey areas that are always going to be in contention. I'm sure you want the police and laws there to protect children from sexual exploitation. The same with drugs, you don't want smack and cocaine being sold in Boots. So there has to be a law, an…

>I'm sure you want the police and laws there to protect children from sexual exploitation.

Which is why I clearly said ADULT in my response.

We protect children from all manner of things because their brains have not formed to the point where we as a society believe they can make rational choices for themselves

However if we are going to have a free society at some point you become an adult, at which point I do not believe the government should act as a parent over your life making choices as to what is "best" for you

Allowing for that type of government means you lose self agency and your liberty. I reject that

>>The same with drugs, you don't want smack and cocaine being sold in Boots.

Not sure what a boot is, in American English a boot is a type of shoe, I dont really know if I care that people sell drugs out of their shoes...

Aside from that, Yes I believe "smack", cocaine, and every other drug should be legal to sell to adults. The government has not business telling an adult what food, drink or drugs they are allowed or not allowed to take. At most the government has an responsibility to enforce quality, and truthful advertisement laws (i.e not allowing people to sell snake oil, or fentynal as heroin, etc) but beyond that the government has no place in it.

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