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Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

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Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#861
post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clear from the video that a human driver actually would've had more trouble since the pedestrian showed up in the field of view right before the collision, yet that's in the visible spectrum. That's not at all clear to me. I don't know too much about cameras, but it looks to me like the camera is making the scene appear much darker than it actually is. In the video, you can see many street lights projecting down…

The whole reason many people on here have been advocating for self driving cars is that they can see obstructions more or less perfectly in the dark with LIDAR. I am much more interested in what that sensor said. I'm reluctant to infer exactly what a human eye would have seen in that situation. I have absolutely driven down streets in suburbia where the gap between street lights was large enough to make them quite da…

The ninja is the reference standard for real-world pedestrians. It's up there with the surprise moose. Systems that can only detect bright peds are going to be horrific meat grinders and lead to autocar hell instead of autocar heaven.

Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#862
post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, so given your observations, which I don't doubt, here's a question I have: why have a pilot on public roads? If uber's software wasn't robust, why "test in production" when production could kill people?

I have the same questions as well. But my best guess is that they probably have permission to drive at non-highway speeds at late nights/early mornings (which is when this accident occurred, at 10 PM). My first reaction when I watched that video was that my Subaru with EyeSight+RADAR would have stopped/swerved. Even the news articles state something similar (from this article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsam…

> At least it should have been able to steer around Herzberg to the left without hitting her.

Does the car have immediate 360 degrees perception? A human would have to look in one or two rear view mirrors before steering around a bike, or possibly put himself and others in an even worse situation.

Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#863
Move fast and break things. Fake it till you make it. Drink the koolaid. All hail Silicon Valley. Blah.

The ugly truth is, when looking at the high-end camera photos of the accident spot, a human driver had a 50-50 chance of avoiding this accident. This car didn't even react. But that's not the worst thing. The worst thing is that the infrared or heatcam tech is fairly advanced and would have seen this person even in pitch black. But it seems Uber chose to do "testing on production" and released an experiment onto the roads. It's well known that lidar tech has problems during rains, snows and low light. Sure, driving it is great for machine learning, but at what cost? Especially when everyone expects so much more from this tech than to equal human drivers. The goal should be to remove accidents from the equation. But, especially for Uber, the goal is just to profit.

Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, so given your observations, which I don't doubt, here's a question I have: why have a pilot on public roads? If uber's software wasn't robust, why "test in production" when production could kill people?

Disclaimer: I am playing Devils Advocate and I don't necessarily subscribe to the following argument, but: Surely it's a question of balancing against the long term benefit from widely adopted autonomous driving? If self driving cars in their current state are at least close to as safe as human drivers, then you could argue that a short term small increase in casualty rate to help development rate is a reasonable cos…

You can make the argument with the long-term benefits. But you cannot make it without proper statistically sound evidence about the CURRENT safety of the system that you intend to test, for the simple reason that the other traffic participants you potentially endanger are not asked if they accept any additional risk that you intend to expose them to. So you really need to be very close to the risk that they're exposed to right now anyway, which is approximately one fatal accident every 80 million miles driven by humans, under ANY AND ALL environmental conditions that people are driving under. That number is statistically sound, and you need to put another number on the other side of the equation that is equally sound and on a similar level. This is currently impossible to do, for the simple fact that no self-driving car manufacturer is even close to having multiple hundreds of millions of miles traveled in self-driving mode in conditions that are close enough to real roads in real cities with real people. Purely digital simulations don't count. What can potentially count in my eyes is real miles with real cars in "stage" environments, such as a copy of a small city, with other traffic participants that deliberately subject the car to difficult situations, erratic actions, et cetera, of which all of them must be okay with their exposure to potentially high-risk situations.

Of course that is absurdly expensive. But it's not impossible, and it's the only acceptable way of developing this high-potential but also highly dangerous technology up to a safety level at which you can legitimately make the argument that you are NOT exposing the public to any kind of unacceptable additional risk when you take the super-convenient and cheap route of using the public infrastructure for your testing. If you can't deal with these costs, just get the fuck out of this market. I'm also incapable of entering the pharmaceuticals development market, because even if I knew how to mix a promising new drug, I would not have the financial resources to pay for the extensive animal and clinical testing procedures necessary to get this drug safe enough for selling it to real humans. Or can I also just make the argument of "hey, it's for the good of humanity, it'll save lives in the long run and I gave it to my guinea pig which didn't die immediately, so statistically it's totally safe!" when I am caught mixing the drug into the dishes of random guests of a restaurant?

Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#865
post #842
post #818

Someone on Reddit posted a comparison of the same spot at night but with a good camera: https://m.imgur.com/a/PM7uu from a video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XOVxSCG8u0 That paints the whole accident in a very different light from the video from Twitter. Would any human not notice someone crossing in the good camera screenshot?

Wow, this really paints a different picture. If Uber cars have video quality like the one in the Tweet they should not be on public roads at all. Edit: I'm not asserting that this is the only video that car "sees", but if it's not, it seems a bit disingenuous for Uber to share only this crappy low quality video with the police.

Maybe uber made the quality of the image worse? I just don't trust uber.

Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#866
post #25

How did LIDAR and IR not catch that? That seems like a pretty serious problem. It's clear from the video that a human driver actually would've had more trouble since the pedestrian showed up in the field of view right before the collision, yet that's in the visible spectrum. When I argue for automated driving (as a casual observer), I tell people about exactly this sort of stuff (a computer can look in 20 places at t…

It's clear from the video that a human driver actually would've had more trouble since the pedestrian showed up in the field of view right before the collision, yet that's in the visible spectrum. That's not at all clear to me. I don't know too much about cameras, but it looks to me like the camera is making the scene appear much darker than it actually is. In the video, you can see many street lights projecting down…

The driver wasn't fixed on the road but he glanced two times prior the collision and had no hesitation. It seems that it was at least dark enough for him not to notice a person + a bike on a large road.

I'm also very (sadly) surprised that she crossed that kind of road at night without hurrying or reacting to the sound of cars approaching.

Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#867

So now we all know- Elaine Herzberg did not run out in front of the car, as the police said, she was walking at a normal pace; she was not in the shadows- the camera footage is typically darker than human vision; and the reason why the first thing the driver knew of the crash was the sound of it is because she didn't have her eyes on the road. And all the cars sensors, its superior perception of its environment and i…

You're missing the (admittedly comfy) narrative that the other tech companies are being diligent and careful while Uber are a bunch of cowboys rushing alpha code out into public, who only change stuff when they get caught. The autocar fan's worst nightmare.

Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#868
This thread is a case study on the Dunning–Kruger effect. I hope a lot of self reflection occurs once the actual studies and, you know, facts get around about human vision, peripheral perception, low light peripheral perception, reaction times, pedestrian fatality statistics, this accident...

Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#869
post #818

Someone on Reddit posted a comparison of the same spot at night but with a good camera: https://m.imgur.com/a/PM7uu from a video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XOVxSCG8u0 That paints the whole accident in a very different light from the video from Twitter. Would any human not notice someone crossing in the good camera screenshot?

I wonder if the moon phase or clouds had anything to do with the lighting conditions.

Re: Tempe Police Release Video of Uber Accident

#870
According to this article, the algos only track objects that have been classified as "moving" and the initial classification is what matters.

"Let’s say that there is a huge red fire truck idling at the side of the road. An autonomous car can’t see the fire truck if the fire truck suddenly pulls out into traffic. Why? Autonomous cars have a stop and start problem. They don’t have unlimited processing power, so they cut down on calculations by only calculating the potential future location of objects that seem to be in motion. Because they are not calculating the trajectory for the stationary fire truck, only for objects in motion (like pedestrians or bicyclists), they can’t react quickly to register a previously stationary object as an object in motion.

If a giant red fire truck is parked, and it suddenly swings into traffic, the autonomous car can’t react in time."

http://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tech/2018/03/self-driving-ca...

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