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Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

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Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#271

Post by Retra »

lambda_lover wrote: post #38
wemdyjreichert wrote: post #10

How can I politely say "no way" while still getting the job?

In my experience the problem is that these clauses are traditionally presented to you by a non-technical employee typically from HR, and (in my anecdotal experience) these employees usually try to dismiss your concerns with a "oh it's just a formality" or "all companies make you sign this sort of thing!"... so if you're not important enough to talk to someone higher up, you might just get your offer revoked if you tr…

If someone doesn't have the power to change the contract, then they don't have the power to negotiate with me. And if they don't have the power to negotiate with me, then what business do they have offering me a contract to sign?

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#272

Post by mrep »

Doches wrote: post #228

From the tail end of the OP: > I’m a Computer Scientist. We don’t have unions and we don’t collectively bargain. Basic workers rights are our responsibility I've always been bothered by this question. Why _don't_ we have unions? What is it about the tech industry that makes it so resistant (especially in the US) to labor organization? I work in the EU for a US company, and my American colleagues universally seem to f…

As a born and raised American, I associate union pay with tenure (how long you have worked for one company) or flat pay. This sounds okay when productivity does not vary much by employee like factory workers.

However, knowledge workers like software developers can very in productivity by orders of magnitude. Companies can therefore pay far more for more productive employees if they can differentiate employee productivity. As someone who has worked with people whom I consider a net negative on our output, A union based pay that brings my income down to the lowest common denominator is the last place I would want to join.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#273

Post by jglauche »

biztos wrote: post #146
jglauche wrote: post #105

One of the NDAs someone wanted me to sign had a phrase like "I will not share or use anything that I learned working on this project". Not limited to the client's project or anything. Whenever I work on something, I learn something. Be it a minor thing. How would I ever met that contract on my side? I can't forget what I just learned. My policy is that I charge about 33% extra if they don't trust me not disclosing se…

> I charge about 33% extra Has that ever come up for you in real life, with the client paying you the 33% extra and you accepting such a wide-ranging NDA/noncompete? It seems to me that you'd be taking on a risk much greater than 33% of your earnings on the project, though I suppose the risk of actual "enforcement" of the letter of the agreement is not very high.

Once I was asked and I stated my conditions, but we ended up not having mutual trust in each other. The communication was weird and seemed very suspicious on their side. I slept over it and my gut feeling said not to do it.

No one has ever sued me before but with my personal business as company structure, I am legally liable with up to all my private assets. I am not an anonymous entity, I get jobs mostly by recommendation, getting letters from lawyers messes me up mentally easily and I can't mess with my client's sensitive data in the first place.

My extra charge is giving me extra time and compensation for adding extra security measures and most importantly (encrypted) documentation for myself if in any unlikely case they'd enforce their part.

In essence: I value mutual trust a lot, if I feel lack of trust on their side, I need to be extra careful. The more mutual trust I form with a client, the easier it is to get a mutual understanding and less likely that they'll escalate it to lawyers and courts.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#275

Post by emmanuel_1234 »

cwkoss wrote: post #254
joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

I would totally DDOS legal with a deluge of stupid inventions. Toilet which makes farting sounds when you flush it. Spoon with a hole in it so you spill on yourself. Mug without an opening (solid cylinder with handle) Computer monitor that only displays the color pink. Headphones with integrated q-tips iPhone but its a triangle Strap for swinging a chainsaw over your head like a helicopter

Porn. Lot of porn. And stuff related to country the US are not too friendly with, like Pakistan.

That would make their investors / bankers absolutely freak out.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#277

Post by mrchicity »

Bartweiss wrote: post #222
mrchicity wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true in theory but not in practice. I know of a few (somewhat disreputable) big law firms and prop/hedge funds that primarily hire from competitors. They can offer better partnership terms or pay because they don’t spend on research, training, or developing their own talent. Let the competitors do that, and we can skim off the cream talent-wise. It’s good for wages, but is that really fair play? Does it have…

It seems like this problem is well-solved, though not with simple client-list rules. (I've definitely seen those thoroughly violated in ways no one can really enforce.) Financial firms, for example, give strict noncompetes but back them with actually-valuable payouts. Employees can't be hired away for inside knowledge or clients, because those connections will decay for 6/12/24 months before they start. But their loy…

Totally agree. Better to use the carrot than the stick, but it never hurts to have the stick as a backup plan.

Typical problem in finance is you have consistent top performers who are compensated very well and would never leave, you don't really need a non-compete for them, deferred bonus is more than enough, but also bring on junior team members who need to learn a lot of confidential information by necessity.

Hopefully all of the juniors become top performers too, but sometimes they don't. It's the middling guys where you worry about them taking all your secrets to another shop. They aren't very valuable to you, so you won't pay them a big bonus, but also not bad enough to fire, and their knowledge is more valuable elsewhere.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#278

Post by DrScump »

lmkg wrote: post #40
tomohawk wrote: post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

(IANAL) Not signing the contract is one thing. Misrepresenting your position is something else. If you gave the impression that you agreed to the terms provided, then it's possible you could be held to those terms. A contract isn't defined by a signature. A contract is defined by a "meeting of the minds." The signature is commonly-accepted evidence that such a thing occurred, but it's not essential. By pocketing the…

  but it's not essential
Some contracts are unenforceable if not in writing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_frauds

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#279

Post by DrScump »

YogeeKnows wrote: post #68

This is just one of those things which looks evil from 'Employee' perspective but important enough from 'Employer' Perspective. You have to also look at the how these clauses found their way into these contracts. Certain professions; Legal/Software/IT Services/Accounting; make it very easy for one or group of employees, to just take a company's current clients, offer them a low price, and start a new firm thereby cau…

  Most software engineers when they leave the company take backup of ... the entire code for the project
I seriously doubt that. But, once in a while, having done so saves the company's butt[0].

[0] https://www.northeastern.edu/securenu/toy-story-2-almost-los...

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#280

Post by Terr_ »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #21
inetknght wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now if only I could do that with software-enforced EULAs. You know, the things that nobody reads but generally sign away all your rights.

In theory you can (but unfortunately nobody does). Send a letter via snail mail that clearly states that you disagree with their EULA but were unfortunately only made aware of the EULA after your purchase. Include a printed, revised EULA with your proposals for changes. Be reasonable in the changes you propose. If they reply to you that they disagree with the changes, they can prohibit you from using the software or…

I don't know, this sounds a little bit like that sovereign citizen "wrong flag in the courtroom" stuff.

Even if they haven't replied, the original contract is still sitting there clearly stating that a certain set of assumptions are in place if you use the software. I don't see any way to argue that a non-reply implies consent to new terms or abandonment of any terms.

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