Live data from Hacker News

Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

bloomberg.com

81–90 of 180 posts

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#81
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling to understand why people keep bringing up the Obama comparison. At the start of the 2016 elections everyone , Sanders, Clinton, Jeb!, Trump were doing what Obama did in 2012. The outrage isn't soley in the fact that the CA campaign used FB data. 1. CA obtained the data illicitly and tried to cover up the fact they had used it, and downplay how many users they had reached. 2. CA used the data to intenti…

https://ijr.com/ijr-red/2018/03/1077083-ex-obama-campaign-di... You have a former Obama campaign staffer saying that what they did raised alarms with Facebook. Hence, what they were doing was not OK by someone’s standard. Plus, the intent of the app is irrelevant. By using it you authorized it to get information on everyone in your friend list, something they’ve since disabled for, wait for it, privacy reasons becaus…

IJR is an extremely biased source

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#82
There is a suddenness to this episode that deserves some examination. For years, Facebook has been violating people's privacy. For years, people went along with it. Perhaps on some level, people were disturbed by it, but they weren't angry enough to do anything about it.

If we were discussing economics, then we would call this a Minsky moment[1]. If you substitute "trust" for "money" then this almost fits:

"A Minsky moment is a sudden major collapse of asset values which is part of the credit cycle or business cycle. Such moments occur because long periods of prosperity and increasing value of investments lead to increasing speculation using borrowed money."

But I think we are also seeing a sudden moral panic, like the one that destroyed MySpace in 2006. danah boyd wrote about that at the time[2]:

"Because of their position of power, outsiders are pushing the big red emergency button, screaming danger and creating a complete and utter moral panic. Welcome to a generational divide, where adults are unable to see the practices of their children on kids' terms. If MySpace falters in the next 1-2 years, it will be because of this moral panic."

But those children grew up. The 16 year old of 2006 is now 28. So this moral panic is a bit different. It's not adults freaking out about what is being done to kids, it's adults freaking out about what is being done to themselves.

Mind you, I think it's obvious that Facebook has behaved very badly, so this episode of castigation is well deserved. But the suddenness of it makes me think there is also an element of panic.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsky_moment

[2] https://www.danah.org/papers/FriendsterMySpaceEssay.html

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#83
post #66
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I missed the part in that video where he says they pulled private user data? If Trump generated his own social graph, I don't think there would be outrage.. instead they've got something worse than a breach on their hands. It's apples and oranges.

They got the whole thing. https://twitter.com/cld276/status/975568130117459975

For some reason my prior comment with sources was deleted, so here goes again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1129&v=LGiiQUMaS....

"We were able to ingest the entire social network of the US."

https://twitter.com/cld276/status/975568130117459975

"Facebook was surprised we were able to suck out the whole social graph, but they didn’t stop us once they realized that was what we were doing."

"They came to office in the days following election recruiting & were very candid that they allowed us to do things they wouldn’t have allowed someone else to do because they were on our side."

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#84
post #25

> ... Facebook's de facto anonymity ... Facebook does a pretty good job of authentication, at least for nontechnical users, who are arguably the majority. If you sign up using VPN services or Tor, you get nagged for a mobile number for text verification. So Facebook either knows your IP address or mobile number. I don't consider that "de facto anonymity". Now if you're skilled, and willing to invest some time and mon…

Mobile number checks are almost trivial to circumvent - you can get a DID with SMS capability from a VOIP provider for under a buck, just use it once and throw it away.

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#85
post #27
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Facebook outrage is interesting since it is tied to Trump. When Obama did it, no one cared. For example, there's a video of Jim Messina, Obama's 2012 campaign manager, talking about how they obtained the entire Facebook social graph and used it to target voters. [1] I don't remember any "delete Facebook" campaigns back then. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZmcyHpG31A

Please stop spreading the "Obama did it too!" canard, they didn't exceed authorization.

Please stop spreading the "Obama did it too!" canard, they didn't exceed authorization.

So in this formulation you're making Facebook out to be some kind of super-governmental authority on the proper or improper use of this potentially civilization shifting cache of data.

This issue here isn't, oh noes! Trump broke Facebook's rules, bad Trump!

This issue here is that this cache of data exists and we've seen it put to use in a variety of ways that elicit dismay from a variety of people.

This issue here is that Facebook exists, has constructed this system, exploitative of human behaviour and psychology, and collected this data.

Think back to the Chamath and Parker stories a few months ago. This is a much bigger issue than the doings of a single political campaign.

Are we just going to leave it up to Zuck and Sheryl to work out how they can best profit from this system and data while hoping they don't destroy society in the process?

What if Zuckerberg were to die in a plane crash tomorrow and an enfant terrible, a young Maxima Rex were to subsequently rise to the throne while holding political views polar opposite to both you and her father, would you be just as enthusiastic about her deciding what are and aren't "authorizable" uses of this data?

#deletefacebook

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#86
post #72
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorta like making everything you disagree with Russian?

Julian Assange works for RT [1], which is the Russian state propaganda media [2], or was that a rhetorical question? 1. https://www.rt.com/tags/the-julian-assange-show/ 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#Propaganda_cla...

That's the entire political discourse these days, isn't it? X had dealing with, or "has connections" to Y, therefore everything Y does can be imputed to X.

There's a Russian behind every curtain! They're perhaps the most powerful country on earth! Literally everything (from Bernie to Jill Stein to Trump to the NRA) is Russina backed! ZOMG!

I'm guessing you haven't ever read anything about McCarthyism. https://theintercept.com/2017/02/23/the-increasingly-unhinge...

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#87
post #5

It's fascinating that widespread outrage over privacy finally materializes when data is used for hated political causes. Commerce, law enforcement not so much... but "Trump" or "Obama" and suddenly people care.

People care about their "football team" [party] and their small economic and social bubble. They are not good in general to see how things affect them.

Fun fact: most fiscal policies have as a goal to get people to invest their money and get growth back in. Their effect is psychological. If the effects sound like they will have a positive effect in my little bubble I will start spending and investing, as I feel the Big Brother is ensuring a positive future for me. In fact, I as an individual impact the economy and not the Big Brother directly, as i) I spread the positive feeling and ii) invest. Hence, the consensus of the market is positive. See Keyene's "The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money" (http://cas2.umkc.edu/economics/people/facultypages/kregel/co...) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_General_Theory_of_Employme...) chapter 12. The average per person confidence for the short term affects the long term progress. People usually find no precedence to connect their privacy to the economic or political success. Now events start rolling stating otherwise. This article for instance states claims that their lack of privacy might have impacted the election, a matter most people feel affects their bubble. And rightly so. Thus why the mild reactions.

Example 2: People in security world/academia have been paranoid about what NSA was doing. The average Joe did not care about their data till the E. Snowden fiasco. The "mob reaction" told them to care. Then it subsided a bit again. Fortunately, it left the average person maybe a bit more aware on average. The impact was more money flowing towards security research and the rest of the world took note.

As a last (desperate) solution, I hope events like this hit the public where it hurts. Equifax was not enough, but it was a wake up call for some. This Facebook scandal probably will not do the job for the average Jane/Joe, but maybe the next one will. At that point people will either have to take a step or we will wake up in an Orwellian world.

We may need an event so drastic that relates people's privacy with their bubble and fast. Remember the "sudden" economic/social disasters of today are usually decades in the making (1920s, 2007, Russian revolution, most likely "x (social) revolution", where x is your country).

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#88
post #11
post #5

It's fascinating that widespread outrage over privacy finally materializes when data is used for hated political causes. Commerce, law enforcement not so much... but "Trump" or "Obama" and suddenly people care.

The Facebook outrage is interesting since it is tied to Trump. When Obama did it, no one cared. For example, there's a video of Jim Messina, Obama's 2012 campaign manager, talking about how they obtained the entire Facebook social graph and used it to target voters. [1] I don't remember any "delete Facebook" campaigns back then. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZmcyHpG31A

It's not that interesting. Obama is a typical politician. Trump is a bullshitting, dysfunctional, con-artist who would never have been elected under normal circumstances. Trump is not politics as usual.

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#89

Not sure if offtopic but how does Facebook make money? They talk about micro targetting me but, while I click often on adword ads because they know me, I have literally 0 times seen any interesting or a even remotely relevant ad on facebook? They know everything about me... I did an advertising engine for a big datingsite long ago which was stupid as mud but got vastly superior ads for for my demographic based on the…

Advertising.

See: https://s21.q4cdn.com/399680738/files/doc_financials/2017/Q4...

Re: Zuckerberg Has No Way Out of Facebook's Quagmire

#90
post #86
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Julian Assange works for RT [1], which is the Russian state propaganda media [2], or was that a rhetorical question? 1. https://www.rt.com/tags/the-julian-assange-show/ 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)#Propaganda_cla...

That's the entire political discourse these days, isn't it? X had dealing with, or "has connections" to Y, therefore everything Y does can be imputed to X. There's a Russian behind every curtain! They're perhaps the most powerful country on earth! Literally everything (from Bernie to Jill Stein to Trump to the NRA) is Russina backed! ZOMG! I'm guessing you haven't ever read anything about McCarthyism. https://theinte…

No, it's an element of political discourse that is entirely necessary. Given how cheap and effective this sort of tactic is in the current media and information landscape, why would someone interested in destabilizing a country not do it?
Post reply on HN