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Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

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Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#111

Post by wccrawford »

vorpalhex wrote: post #31
wemdyjreichert wrote: post #10

How can I politely say "no way" while still getting the job?

"Hi, would it be possible to remove clause X?" usually works for me. I've occasionally had to use the slightly stronger, "I'm sorry, but I actually can't sign this until clause X is removed." Don't go into reasons, or get into a philosophical debate about it. The only time I've given an explanation was for a volunteer gig where I refused to sign an NDA at all, and had to explain to the coordinator "We can either be e…

>"I'm sorry, but I actually can't sign this until clause X is removed."

I said that once to someone about a liability clause that would possibly have cost more than I'd make there.

He started accusing me of attempting to sabotage his business and was very angry.

I just left. So glad I found that particular bombshell before I signed anything.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#112

Post by [deleted] »

raarts wrote: post #73
tomohawk wrote: post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

Be very careful with this. I have run into trouble because of exactly this. There was a conflict in payment, I left. Their lawyer argued that even though the agreement was not signed, I had acted as if it had been (by not objecting and continuing the employment), so it was still valid. I ended up settling, so losing money.

[deleted]

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#113

Post by rhacker »

lmkg wrote: post #40
tomohawk wrote: post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

(IANAL) Not signing the contract is one thing. Misrepresenting your position is something else. If you gave the impression that you agreed to the terms provided, then it's possible you could be held to those terms. A contract isn't defined by a signature. A contract is defined by a "meeting of the minds." The signature is commonly-accepted evidence that such a thing occurred, but it's not essential. By pocketing the…

Oh no this is not true - if they can't find the signed paper work it is Absolutely on them. I've been square in this situation before - the company's legal "person" is absolutely in charge and responsible for collecting whatever signatures they want and which ones are optional and required. I absolutely disagree with this post.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#114

Post by rootusrootus »

zekevermillion wrote: post #102
joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

This language is very common in IP assignment agreements (often bundled together with restrictive covenants where enforceable). I don't love noncompetes, but assuming you plan to work in the tech industry with proprietary software or hard tech, you will have to get comfortable agreeing to provisions such as this. The purpose of the clause is risk allocation. If the employer has a dispute with you after termination, i…

That is disheartening to hear. I've been doing software for over 20 years and I have yet run across such a provision in my employment contracts. I do not hold a strong ideological position on free software but if a potential employer asked me to sign something like that I'd just walk away. I do work on my own side projects, and the most I would ever agree to is that my side projects won't be in the same area or in any way compete with any of the products my company offers (easy for me because I don't work for a place like Google...).

The notion that a company owns you is just silly IMO. They make a big point of informing me once a year that I am employed at will and can be terminated at any time for any reason or no reason. So I am clear with them that outside of my work week, everything I do is mine. This is business.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#115

Post by jermaustin1 »

lightbyte wrote: post #20
crusso wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of an interesting approach to it, I guess. I wonder how far you could take such a thing. * Could you initial every page but remove any pages you didn't like from a single contract? * Could you insert your own subtly edited version of their non-compete that you signed? I'm wondering where the legal line is between the employer's need to do due diligence and the expectation that the employee isn't doing something…

Sounds like this [1] case where a man received a credit card offer in the mail, re-wrote some terms and sent it back, and the bank accepted it without reading it. He did win the initial lawsuit from the bank. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowin...

He technically won a consolation prize (30% cash back debit card) on his counter suit after both parties withdrew their suits[1].

[1]https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/man-who-outwitted-bank-e...

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#116

Post by checkyoursudo »

lmkg wrote: post #40
tomohawk wrote: post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

(IANAL) Not signing the contract is one thing. Misrepresenting your position is something else. If you gave the impression that you agreed to the terms provided, then it's possible you could be held to those terms. A contract isn't defined by a signature. A contract is defined by a "meeting of the minds." The signature is commonly-accepted evidence that such a thing occurred, but it's not essential. By pocketing the…

(IAAL)

Just for clarity's sake:

Some kinds of contracts definitely do require signatures to be executed and others don't. If it's important to you, then make sure you know which kind of execution yours requires.

I have read cases where employment agreements are void for lack of signatures. But, I am not an employment lawyer, and every jurisdiction is potentially different.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#117

Post by Gerardo1 »

lmkg wrote: post #40
tomohawk wrote: post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

(IANAL) Not signing the contract is one thing. Misrepresenting your position is something else. If you gave the impression that you agreed to the terms provided, then it's possible you could be held to those terms. A contract isn't defined by a signature. A contract is defined by a "meeting of the minds." The signature is commonly-accepted evidence that such a thing occurred, but it's not essential. By pocketing the…

Is there no baseline burden of due diligence that would come into play here? What if you didn't sign any of the packet and just showed up and started working. Surely you can't be held liable for the employer doing absolutely no follow-through?

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#118

Post by doctorbigtime »

I agree with the general gist of the article, for one specific reason: the non-competes discussed don't come with any pay.

In much of trading-related finance, non-competes or garden leaves are ubiquitous, with periods lasting between 6 months and 2 years. However, they are usually paid, and in many cases paid well (more than your annual base salary). In my view, this makes sense: you may have learned a trading strategy that is highly valuable to the firm you are leaving and it is expected to decay over time. You are being compensated not to share this with competition.

In that context, I eagerly sign non-competes with the expectation of having 6-18 months paid vacation at some point in the future. Some non-compete periods can be _glorious_. A guy in Chicago sued his former employer to have his non-compete enforced (and thus collect a massive pay cheque): https://www.natlawreview.com/article/employer-s-waiver-non-c...

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#119

Post by rgbrenner »

chadash wrote: post #62

I see a lot of stories/comments about not signing non-compete agreements on HN, so I want to throw in my own 2 cents. Many times, companies have standard paperwork that they want you to sign and they don't want to deal with the hassle of hiring someone who won't sign the forms that their lawyers already drafted. Making modifications means that they have to call up their lawyer (who charges $300+/hour), have a convers…

This is terrible advice. I'm happy to hear you've never been sued or had a contract used against you... I have had a contract I've signed used against me (although it wasn't an NCA)... and on that day, you're going to have a terrible time.

People who say they ask for the moon and never plan to collect are liars. They paid someone to draft that contract with that language. That cost real money. Why would they do that, and then cause friction in their dealings with others by asking them to sign it, if they never plan to use it?

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#120

Post by Spoom »

zekevermillion wrote: post #102
joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

This language is very common in IP assignment agreements (often bundled together with restrictive covenants where enforceable). I don't love noncompetes, but assuming you plan to work in the tech industry with proprietary software or hard tech, you will have to get comfortable agreeing to provisions such as this. The purpose of the clause is risk allocation. If the employer has a dispute with you after termination, i…

Refusing to sign a contract because of this clause means you are perhaps a closeted free software advocate (and good for you!) or do not really desire a long-term career in this (arguably exploitative) industry.

I have to disagree. I've had a long career in software development and I've never seen a clause this broad. If the clause was restricted to the term of employment, that would be one thing, but insisting that they own your brain beyond the time that they're even paying you is too overreaching to even consider.

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