Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

penguindreams.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 295 posts

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#91

Post by emodendroket »

tomohawk wrote: post #6
sillyquiet wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I get that approach, but tbh I would rather hash that out with a company before I get hired rather than 4 months down the road when some HR person notices the paperwork is incomplete.

By that point, the paperwork is complete. The hiring completes the transaction as being satisfactory to both sides.

For the vast majority of workers the company has the right at any time to introduce a new contract and require you to sign it as a condition of continued employment.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#92

Post by falcolas »

rrdharan wrote: post #77
YogeeKnows wrote: post #68

This is just one of those things which looks evil from 'Employee' perspective but important enough from 'Employer' Perspective. You have to also look at the how these clauses found their way into these contracts. Certain professions; Legal/Software/IT Services/Accounting; make it very easy for one or group of employees, to just take a company's current clients, offer them a low price, and start a new firm thereby cau…

> Also Most software engineers when they leave the company take backup of not only the entire code they've written but also the entire code for the project they've been working on. Is that really common practice? I don't doubt some people do this but it seems very foolish to me so I'm surprised that you think most engineers do this.

I agree. Doing this would be stupid as hell, since it just opens you up to a lawsuit over stealing company secrets. Having knowledge in your head is one thing. Having actual code is another entirely.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#93

Post by vonmoltke »

nordsieck wrote: post #69
ethbro wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unethical? It seems ethically equal to a company using their bargaining position to advantage themselves and disadvantage their prospective employees.

> It seems ethically equal to a company using their bargaining position to advantage themselves and disadvantage their prospective employees. You must be unfamiliar with the software development market. In which way do employers have massive market power which renders prospective employees vulnerable? If anything, it seems like developers have the upper hand (perhaps with the exclusion of game developers).

I am very familiar with the software development market wherein both of my job changes thus far have been multi-year searches. Please do not assume that because it is easy to walk out the door into another job in a select few markets an with a select few skill sets that it is this easy for everyone writing software for a living.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#94

Post by isostatic »

stupidcar wrote: post #17
joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

Holy shit. That is way, WAY crazier than a non-compete. That is saying you can't work at all for a year after your employment terminates, because anything you produce during that time is presumed to have actually been created during your previous employment, and so belongs to your ex-employer. Even if you go and work for a non-competing company in a completely different field, and invent something totally unrelated t…

I can see why they've done it -- stop you from inventing something at work, knowing you can't sell it immediately, so leaving and selling it after you've left.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#96

Post by chadash »

CaptSpify wrote: post #43

The problem I have with non-competes, is that I've always been given them as I'm filling out paperwork. So my options are: Say no to the job that I've just quit my last job and moved two states away for, or sign it.

I've asked companies for copies of all paperwork that I'll be expected to sign before starting. I just frame it casually before I accept the offer, like "hey, I'm very excited about this opportunity! I should have a final decision in a few days, but I just want to run everything by a lawyer friend of mine. Would you mind sending me any documents that I'll be expected to sign before I start working?".

I've never had any resistance to this. If a company doesn't want to show you legal contracts until you show up to the office, there's something shady going on.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#97

Post by jgh »

CaptSpify wrote: post #43

The problem I have with non-competes, is that I've always been given them as I'm filling out paperwork. So my options are: Say no to the job that I've just quit my last job and moved two states away for, or sign it.

yeah really, you should have to sign that as part of the job offer and you can decide about the job then and there instead of potentially uprooting your life / moving states or even countries / and then getting there and having some not-insignificant monkeywrench thrown in.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#98

Post by davidp »

cableshaft wrote: post #44
joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

I've signed one once that had a clause where everything I made for a year after the job ended I had to approach them with it and give them a chance to offer me money for it (right of first refusal), but never anything where they automatically own it post employment. They did have a 'we own pretty much every thought you have while you work here' clause, though, because it was a game studio and the owner's reasoning wa…

> he was a cool guy and I don't think he'd enforce the clause

The problem with that kind of trust is that sometimes the person who makes the decision isn't the cool guy. It can be the company's lawyers who decide to make your life hard after termination for whatever reason (reduces your negotiating leverage at least), or someone else entirely if the company is acquired (for example).

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#99

Post by maxsilver »

YogeeKnows wrote: post #68

This is just one of those things which looks evil from 'Employee' perspective but important enough from 'Employer' Perspective. You have to also look at the how these clauses found their way into these contracts. Certain professions; Legal/Software/IT Services/Accounting; make it very easy for one or group of employees, to just take a company's current clients, offer them a low price, and start a new firm thereby cau…

> make it very easy for one or group of employees, to just take a company's current clients, offer them a low price, and start a new firm thereby causing losses for the original service company. Business which got burnt by their employees starting competitive business thereby started adding these clauses into their agreements.

Sure, but this isn't a fair way to solve that problem. You don't need a non-compete to do this. A simple client list clause protects this legally for the employer, without removing employees right to work.

> Sometimes competitors itself would poach key employee which is working for a Client X thereby gaining an edge and thats why the clause for 'Client'.

This is a feature, not a bug. If the company had paid their employees decent wages, they wouldn't be so easily swayed by offers from competitors. Companies don't get to under-pay employees and demand they never get raises from any other company. Companies don't get to own people working in "field X" just because they have a product or service in that field.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#100

Post by lmkg »

ethbro wrote: post #57
lmkg wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(IANAL) Not signing the contract is one thing. Misrepresenting your position is something else. If you gave the impression that you agreed to the terms provided, then it's possible you could be held to those terms. A contract isn't defined by a signature. A contract is defined by a "meeting of the minds." The signature is commonly-accepted evidence that such a thing occurred, but it's not essential. By pocketing the…

Unethical? It seems ethically equal to a company using their bargaining position to advantage themselves and disadvantage their prospective employees.

I agree that many companies behave unethically during negotiations with their employees.

I disagree that excuses unethical behavior on the part of the employees.

Post reply on HN