Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#71

Post by ethbro » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

chrisabrams wrote: post #3

tomohawk wrote: post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

In a similar light, there are many places that ask you fill out your social security number among other items on paperwork. 9/10 times they will never ask you to fill in the blanks you left out...

If you leave off your social security number, your employer is presumably going to have difficulty paying taxes / social security / etc to you.

Depending on work relationship (e.g. contract), they may not be doing this anyway. But there are some things they need it for.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#72

Post by meuk » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

lightbyte wrote: post #20

crusso wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of an interesting approach to it, I guess. I wonder how far you could take such a thing. * Could you initial every page but remove any pages you didn't like from a single contract? * Could you insert your own subtly edited version of their non-compete that you signed? I'm wondering where the legal line is between the employer's need to do due diligence and the expectation that the employee isn't doing something…

Sounds like this [1] case where a man received a credit card offer in the mail, re-wrote some terms and sent it back, and the bank accepted it without reading it. He did win the initial lawsuit from the bank. [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowin...

I really respect that guy. From the linked article:

  "They signed the documents without looking. They said what usually their borrowers say in court: 'We have not read it',” said Mr Mikhalevich.

I am always pissed off at the stuff that companies get away with, just because they often have a dedicated team of lawyers and a big budget for this stuff.

  Oleg Tinkov, founder of the bank, tweeted: "Our lawyers think he is going to get not 24m, but really 4 years in prison for fraud. Now it's a matter of principle for @tcsbanktwitter."

Typical scare tactics, seems like they were trying to scare him into a settlement.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#73

Post by raarts » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

tomohawk wrote: post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

Be very careful with this.

I have run into trouble because of exactly this. There was a conflict in payment, I left. Their lawyer argued that even though the agreement was not signed, I had acted as if it had been (by not objecting and continuing the employment), so it was still valid.

I ended up settling, so losing money.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#74

Post by maxxxxx » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

vorpalhex wrote: post #31

wemdyjreichert wrote: post #10

How can I politely say "no way" while still getting the job?

"Hi, would it be possible to remove clause X?" usually works for me. I've occasionally had to use the slightly stronger, "I'm sorry, but I actually can't sign this until clause X is removed." Don't go into reasons, or get into a philosophical debate about it. The only time I've given an explanation was for a volunteer gig where I refused to sign an NDA at all, and had to explain to the coordinator "We can either be e…

"Don't go into reasons, "

Agree with that. Never explain your reasoning without being asked. It makes you look weak.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#75

Post by everdev » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:32 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

Always check with a lawyer, but I wouldn't sign it.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#76

Post by Sean1708 » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:33 PM UTC

paultopia wrote: post #42

Carioca wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had an HR person tell me I needed to sign an NDA on the day I quit because it was missing (they forgot to hand me mine the day everyone got theirs). It included minimum damages of one year's salary for ANY breach. I had a lawyer friend write a much nicer and more reasonable version and told them that was the most I would sign. The only reason I even signed anything was to preserve the connections I had made ther…

That was very generous. I'd have laughed in their face in a similar situation.

No point burning bridges if you don't have to, you never know when a connection could come in handy.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#77

Post by rrdharan » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:34 PM UTC

YogeeKnows wrote: post #68

This is just one of those things which looks evil from 'Employee' perspective but important enough from 'Employer' Perspective. You have to also look at the how these clauses found their way into these contracts. Certain professions; Legal/Software/IT Services/Accounting; make it very easy for one or group of employees, to just take a company's current clients, offer them a low price, and start a new firm thereby cau…

> Also Most software engineers when they leave the company take backup of not only the entire code they've written but also the entire code for the project they've been working on.

Is that really common practice? I don't doubt some people do this but it seems very foolish to me so I'm surprised that you think most engineers do this.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#78

Post by pjmlp » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:34 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #7

tomohawk wrote: post #2

I've had non-compete agreements provided to me to sign in the past, usually as part of a packet of things to sign. In each case I just pocketed them without signing them. I've never had a company come back later and demand that I sign the thing. If they don't do their diligence, I don't see why I should do it for them. In other words, just because someone puts something in front of you to sign doesn't mean you have t…

Now if only I could do that with software-enforced EULAs. You know, the things that nobody reads but generally sign away all your rights.

EULAs in most European countries have zero value.

They are only valid if you are able to accept them before paying for the product.

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#79

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:35 PM UTC

nordsieck wrote: post #69

ethbro wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unethical? It seems ethically equal to a company using their bargaining position to advantage themselves and disadvantage their prospective employees.

> It seems ethically equal to a company using their bargaining position to advantage themselves and disadvantage their prospective employees. You must be unfamiliar with the software development market. In which way do employers have massive market power which renders prospective employees vulnerable? If anything, it seems like developers have the upper hand (perhaps with the exclusion of game developers).

[deleted]

Re: Why I Don't Sign Non-Competes

#80

Post by PurpleBoxDragon » Wed, Mar 21, 2018, 2:36 PM UTC

joezydeco wrote: post #5

So recently I came across an Invention Disclosure agreement that a company wanted me to sign. The phrasing of this kind of threw me off: "I will promptly communicate to the Company each and every invention, discovery or item of intellectual property made or conceived by me, either as an individual or jointly with others, during my period of employment, and I agree that any such invention, discovery or item of intelle…

Strike it out and keep going. If it can't be striked out (such as online) just don't sign it. Probably start sending out your resume just in case they force the point, but I would not sign such an clause at all.