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An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

henrytapper.com

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Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#141

Post by JBlue42 »

emodendroket wrote: post #128
bkor wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm guessing you're not american? Their attitudes towards tips are different than, for example, those in continental Europe. It's not attitude, they do underpay certain people. But at the same time various US pizza places do include a service or delivery fee which still doesn't go to the driver. As a result you might pay a delivery fee which is isn't a delivery fee. In a restaurant if they don't get tipped enough t…

> In a restaurant if they don't get tipped enough the restaurant has to make up the difference / pay them minimum wage (though this rule to differ per state). So not paying still should result in minimum wage. In principle this is true; in practice it is rarely honored. > From what I understood in US it's rather arbitrary whom you pay extra and which persons you do not (e.g. even pay extra to get a haircut). Once you…

My barber has been cutting hair for two decades and a masseuse I go to has various certificates. I assume they're all professional yet still have to tip on top of the regular prices. I don't tip at the dry cleaner or after having clothes altered. Working as a barista in various cafes, tips were few and far between, vs pouring beers. Not much difference in the actual experience.

Good rule of thumb but I think it can still trip up non-Americans to some degree.

Best tipping I ever had was working at a fancy hotel - paid a decent service industry wage and would regular get tips of $10-20.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#143

Post by emodendroket »

oldandtired wrote: post #140
emodendroket wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such rules are routinely violated. Perhaps tips "should" be a reward, but they aren't; they're an essential part of compensation, and you're not striking a blow against the system by denying your server their tip. You're just being a cheapskate.

Why should I be considered a cheapskate when I don't tip? I choose to buy goods and service from whomever I please. The prices are set and that is what the agreement is. The agreement is between me and the business. Wages are an agreement between the business and the employee. If the two want to agree to a specific wage regime that is their right. But it in no way, obligates any customer to supply any shortfall betwe…

Because everyone who lives in the United States understands that there is an expectation that if you go to a restaurant you will tip the server in all but the most egregious circumstances. You may as well ask why it's considered rude to eat with your hands while making loud noises when, after all, there's no rule you have violated by doing so.

Furthermore, I'm going to make the assumption that, since you're posting here, you're probably living a pretty comfortable life, and yet here you are making your point by picking the pockets of low-wage workers. What word do you think describes someone who does this better than "cheapskate"? If you are so troubled by this structure that you feel you must take a stand, stay home or visit a restaurant that doesn't accept tips.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#144

Post by emodendroket »

oldandtired wrote: post #138
emodendroket wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, why doesn't the pizza driver just independently change the prices Domino's charges for pizza? It's not just "a bit impolite" to not tip service staff in an American context; it's a grave insult that most people would only do in response to service they thought was shockingly below adequacy -- and likely they wouldn't even patronize the business again after doing so.

Up front, I'm not an American of the USA variety. I had a long argument with two Americans of the USA variety about tipping. The attitude they displayed about tipping was that it was "criminal" if a customer didn't tip. My argument was that, since I was NOT a party to the employment agreement between business and employee, I had no responsibility to make up any shortfall between minimum wage and what the business was…

Nobody cares what your philosophical objection to tipping is. Functionally, there is no difference between you and a tightwad. The custom in the United States is to tip and the entire system is built around this expectation. Whether this meets your Platonic ideal of what a "gratuity" ought to be is really just completely irrelevant.

I'll go further: if you are visiting a different country you should make an effort to adhere to their basic norms of behavior. If I go to Japan and I see a shoe rack at the entryway of a building I am not going to traipse around the building in my shoes, even though nobody would think this behavior was unusual at home.

Also, if I were going to carry out your policy, I would not plan on visiting the same restaurant twice.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#145

Post by emodendroket »

JBlue42 wrote: post #141
emodendroket wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a restaurant if they don't get tipped enough the restaurant has to make up the difference / pay them minimum wage (though this rule to differ per state). So not paying still should result in minimum wage. In principle this is true; in practice it is rarely honored. > From what I understood in US it's rather arbitrary whom you pay extra and which persons you do not (e.g. even pay extra to get a haircut). Once you…

My barber has been cutting hair for two decades and a masseuse I go to has various certificates. I assume they're all professional yet still have to tip on top of the regular prices. I don't tip at the dry cleaner or after having clothes altered. Working as a barista in various cafes, tips were few and far between, vs pouring beers. Not much difference in the actual experience. Good rule of thumb but I think it can s…

Well, the idea of "professional" is a bit slippery, I guess, but let's say the exempted categories are mostly tradesmen and white-collar professionals.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#146

Post by emodendroket »

oldandtired wrote: post #139
emodendroket wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is, because this is an obligation that everybody understands, even if it is not legally enforced.

But it isn't. The customer has no part in the wage negotiations between business and employee. All it shows is that they (business and employees) are not being honourable towards each other or to their customers. A business should set it prices so that it fulfils it responsibilities (including to it staff). If the business cannot run at the prices so set then it fails. That is not the responsibility of the customer t…

If you get on a packed morning commuter train and start playing music on a boombox, you're not breaking any laws and nobody can stop you. Nevertheless, anybody with their head screwed on is going to think you are acting like a jackass.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#147

Post by JBlue42 »

emodendroket wrote: post #145
JBlue42 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My barber has been cutting hair for two decades and a masseuse I go to has various certificates. I assume they're all professional yet still have to tip on top of the regular prices. I don't tip at the dry cleaner or after having clothes altered. Working as a barista in various cafes, tips were few and far between, vs pouring beers. Not much difference in the actual experience. Good rule of thumb but I think it can s…

Well, the idea of "professional" is a bit slippery, I guess, but let's say the exempted categories are mostly tradesmen and white-collar professionals.

Yeah, I think that works. Honestly, one of the 'surprises' of American adulthood was finding out how many different categories of folks are expecting a tip. I would much rather have prices up front - whether it's someone doing a job or taxes (like a VAT) be included with prices so you actually know what to expect to pay.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#148

Post by emodendroket »

JBlue42 wrote: post #147
emodendroket wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the idea of "professional" is a bit slippery, I guess, but let's say the exempted categories are mostly tradesmen and white-collar professionals.

Yeah, I think that works. Honestly, one of the 'surprises' of American adulthood was finding out how many different categories of folks are expecting a tip. I would much rather have prices up front - whether it's someone doing a job or taxes (like a VAT) be included with prices so you actually know what to expect to pay.

A handful of restaurants have gone no-tip but I think there's a pretty clear disadvantage to being a first-mover here.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#149

Post by vortico »

megablast wrote: post #56
vortico wrote: post #42

Why don't they have a normal employee play the "be fired" role? Unless he gets fired 8 times a day, I don't see why he's idle...

It is a bit embarrassing when they keep shopping and see the guy that was fired working in the store, or see them the next day or the next week. They might just catch on.

Ah, I was imagining a sales warehouse, where the customers typically only talk to the sales employees by phone.

Re: An employee whose job was to be sacked (2010)

#150

Post by oldandtired »

emodendroket wrote: post #144
oldandtired wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Up front, I'm not an American of the USA variety. I had a long argument with two Americans of the USA variety about tipping. The attitude they displayed about tipping was that it was "criminal" if a customer didn't tip. My argument was that, since I was NOT a party to the employment agreement between business and employee, I had no responsibility to make up any shortfall between minimum wage and what the business was…

Nobody cares what your philosophical objection to tipping is. Functionally, there is no difference between you and a tightwad. The custom in the United States is to tip and the entire system is built around this expectation. Whether this meets your Platonic ideal of what a "gratuity" ought to be is really just completely irrelevant. I'll go further: if you are visiting a different country you should make an effort to…

The problem here, is that you cannot see that your economy is based on establishing social injustice in all areas. Tipping, as a requirement because businesses don't pay their employees fairly, is to be treated as a moral obligation on someone who is not part of that process instead of a symptom of the basic injustice of the employer/employee relationship.

The only tightwads here are the businesses (and the employees who agree with their policies) who will not pay their employees a fair wage. Again, it is not the responsibility of the customer to ensure that a business survives and thrives. My question to you is "Are you a business owner who does this and are now trying to justify your actions?"

So, you are in agreement with the customs of other countries that women should be treated as second class citizens. You are espousing the treatment of employees by their employers as second class citizens. Your comparison to shoe removal in Japan is not even in the league of the social injustice attitude of not paying employees a fair wage.

In my country, tipping is not the custom as we have minimum wages to adhere to and if a business doesn't do this, those in charge are prosecuted.

Finally, I have no intention of ever visiting the USA. The way its citizens are treated is appalling enough, how it treats its visitors is even worse.

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