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Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

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Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the driver supposed to say in this scenario? "Actually officer, I saw her coming from miles away, but I thought to myself: let's just see what happens..." Of course a "driver" in such a vehicle is going to report the victim came out of nowhere, otherwise they're basically committing homicide or implicating themselves in not paying attention and the car in not sensing them...it literally adds nothing to the ev…

Since it was dark out, the story seems pretty plausible. It's really difficult to see pedestrians at night, even when they use a crosswalk much less if they are crossing in the middle of the road.

The point isn't that its plausible (which it is), its that its the only story you would expect a driver who wasn't already confessing to negligence/manslaughter to say: irrespective of what actually happened.

Because if he had seen her before hand (i.e. she didn't "come out of nowhere"), he would have presumably taken control, breaked, swerved, etc.

We already know that the car appeared not to have done that, so the profession from the driver literally adds no further evidence, since that is exactly what we would expect every driver who mows down a pedestrian unwillingly to say...

Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#362
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There can be several ways to explain this but generally speaking you are right. It shouldn’t go over the speed limit, and under no circumstances should it take the liberty drivers usually take of being within 10% above the limit. I hope no one wrote it that way.

Why not? The range between 1-10 MPH over the speed limit is statistically the safest. (Yes, I know, good luck finding a citation for a study I read 20 years ago...) It's hard to argue against the notion that you're safest when you keep up with prevailing traffic. That means that self-driving cars shouldn't be programmed to go slower. Speed limits are usually too low. Often they have nothing to do with engineering or…

Speed limits in cities and residential areas may also be set to reduce road noise in the neighborhood.

Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#363

My takeaway from the comments in this thread: self-driving Ubers don't drive defensively, almost surely can't "read" pedestrian behavior, and even with lidar may never have seen Elaine Herzberg. Oh, and they speed. This sounds like straight out of the "hell" scenario for driverless cars: "we cannot accept responsibility for what happens to pedestrians and cyclists foolish enough to stray out of their designated safe…

>Oh, and they speed. 3mph variance is perfectly normal even on modern cruise control. And even on most modern cards, what you see on the speedometer is often off by ~1 mph at low speeds, and even more at higher speeds. (This is the reason you will often see people talk about 'GPS verified' speeds when it comes to talking about the top speed they have achieved in a car). Federal law in the US only requires they be acc…

3 mph is almost 5km/h. If their technology is unable to stay within 3mph of a certain speed (which is laughable), they should drive 3mph slower than the speed limit.

Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#364
post #358
post #10

This is just police standard operating procedure. In any kind of manslaughter where a vehicle is involved, save on paperwork and blame whichever party ended up dead before the driver has even spoken the words "she came from nowhere". Here is the police chief spelling it out for Uber: she came from the shadows I wonder what that LIDAR thinks about the shadows . I mean, this system is in place because everybody drives…

In France, the car is always at blame whatever the cyclist or pedestrian did. This the jurisprudence as set by a case where a drunk cyclist, driving at night without any light in the wrong lane and against traffic was hit by a car coming by. Though the driver obviously wasn't at fault, the decision was to always protect the vulnerable and feeble, i.e. the cyclist.

I came here to say the same, if a car ever hits a pedestrian the car is always at fault. Pedestrians follow the laws of physics, they don't just "come out of the shadows". It amazes me that Police could even think about issuing this statement, and also that people take it at face value. Guys, if you ever see a pedestrian in your path and you are not able to avoid them, you were driving too fast, simple as that.

And I would disagree with you that the driver was not at fault. He may have attenuating circumstances, but he was there to survey the environment and override the machine just in cases like that. The situation required him to lower the speed in order to avoid hitting a potential person "coming out of the shadows" and he did not do that. Once the person did show up, maybe it was too late for him to react, but he should have acted before. And let me take that back, he should at least hit the brakes; maybe it was too late to avoid the collision, but not hitting the brakes at all? Definitely at fault.

Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Oh, and they speed. 3mph variance is perfectly normal even on modern cruise control. And even on most modern cards, what you see on the speedometer is often off by ~1 mph at low speeds, and even more at higher speeds. (This is the reason you will often see people talk about 'GPS verified' speeds when it comes to talking about the top speed they have achieved in a car). Federal law in the US only requires they be acc…

I think there's something off about your arguments, human drivers speed, but they don't do it because of properties of the speedometer or the cruise control, or air resistance, or potholes - they do it because they don't care much about the speed limit. It's completely possible to stay below the speed limit in a car, a lot of people just don't bother. Cruise control won't apply the brakes (at least in older cars) if…

Current systems cannot know the exact speed of a car due to the mechanics involved:

A speedometer's reading is measured on the gearbox, at the output but there are a myriad of little things after that including variance in the final drive, tire size and tire pressure all of which can make the "calculated" speed and the real speed to be within a few % of each other. All of these components are also affected by wear too.

At the moment you need a GPS to conclusively measure a car's speed with >99% accuracy but GPS signal isn't available/sufficient everywhere. One could argue that we should create some sort of highly accurate local system that measures speed and we certainly can but we'd be trying to solve a 0~10% speed measurement problem: we'd get no real value from it.

In other words: a car measures how fast a specific cog is rotating, adds a few variables and estimates how fast the car is going based on that.

edit: and all of this assumes the car is going straight, calculating speed when the car is curving is more complex.

Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#366
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. An algorithm should be in much better position to recognize its confidence about what it sees and can happen, and alter the driving speed to reduce the amount of uncertain spots that fall within its stopping range. That is, unless they use neural network magic black boxes to implement the self-driving part.

>That is, unless they use neural network magic black boxes to implement the self-driving part. Is this actually done? I thought neural networks were more or less used for the vision system to detect parts of the scene (pedestrians, stop-signs, etc). This is the only area where to me it makes sense to take the blackbox tadeoff right now.

Neural nets are also likely to be used to model the behavior of other road users (i.e. 'how is this car/pedestrian/etc likely to move in the next few seconds'?). No-one seems to be seriously considering an end-to-end neural network (i.e. inputs are sensors, outputs are throttle and steering wheel), but neural nets are pervasive components of the full system.

Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#367
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Oh, and they speed. 3mph variance is perfectly normal even on modern cruise control. And even on most modern cards, what you see on the speedometer is often off by ~1 mph at low speeds, and even more at higher speeds. (This is the reason you will often see people talk about 'GPS verified' speeds when it comes to talking about the top speed they have achieved in a car). Federal law in the US only requires they be acc…

3 mph is almost 5km/h. If their technology is unable to stay within 3mph of a certain speed (which is laughable), they should drive 3mph slower than the speed limit.

I would be very surprised if your cruise control kept within 3mph of the set speed at all times in all conditions. My car certainly doesn't, and it's a 2017 model with a sophisticated adaptive cruise control.

I'll ignore ACC for a moment and talk about the modern implementation of regular cruise control, however. You'll have your target speed stored in a control unit, which cares about 3 to 4 things: your set speed, your current speed, the flow of fuel to the engine, and in newer models, access to the brakes. So, how do we determine the current speed? The drive shaft will have a magnet mounted on it, and each time it spins around there is a sensing coil that sends a signal to the control unit. Based on the frequency of these signals, it determines what your speed is, and compares it against your set speed. If it is low, it will send a signal to a servomotor that is connected to the accelerator, sending more fuel into the engine, hopefully increasing your speed. If it is going to fast, it will cut fuel, and on some models, apply breaks if you are more significantly over the set speed.

However, this is a pretty dumb system. It only knows how fast you want to go, how fast you're going, and whatever the formula is that it follows for increasing the flow of fuel to the engine. It doesn't know about millions of other factors that affect how fuel efficient that acceleration is going to be. It is constantly readjusting based on the new speed readings. To my knowledge, all manufacturers also go for something that provides a "smooth" driving experience for their adjustments, rather than how to most quickly achieve the set speed. When you take the limited data available for a cruise control system and combine it with built in smoothing to keep the ride comfortable, you end up in a situation where the cruise control is making frequent adjustments that end up on one side or the other of your target speed. The lack of perfect information means they purposefully do not attempt to perfectly match the target speed - attempting to due so would require so many adjustments that it would be pretty terrible for fuel economy.

Now, hopefully, the Uber vehicle is going to have even more data available than my ACC equipped car. But even with my ACC equipped car, almost all of the work has gone in better determining what the set speed should be, and significantly less on making sure it hits it exactly. I expect this is probably the same on the Uber vehicle. Because quite frankly, it's just not that important. To be quite blunt, the difference between being hit at 35mph and 38mph is probably just how far your corpse flies.

As for saying they should drive 3mph slower than the speed limit, then they might end up going 6mph under the speed limit instead of 3mph under.

I suppose my fundamental argument in the previous post and now this is: What outcome is expected from them being able to stay perfectly at 35mph instead of having enough variance to hit 38mph? What benefits are there? A few mph makes the most difference in damage from an injury standpoint at very low speeds, and these are the speeds that variance is almost always significantly lower - there's no evidence here that Uber cars are going 8mph when they're meant to be going 5mph, for example, and this would not be the type of variance we see in cruise control systems in general - and very little difference to the outcome at high speeds, where the greatest variance is likely to be shown.

Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What speed would you drive if there was no speed limit ?

What speed would you drive? Would you take close corners at 120km/h? People (on average) drive at the speed their actually very well tuned survival instinct tells them to.

Depends on the conditions. With moderate temperature and dry conditions every single corner on a highway can be taken at 120km/h on any modern car, the overwhelming majority of them can be taken far in excess of 200km/h depending on the car's characteristics.

Then again under bad conditions on a 90km/h roads my survival instinct like you mentioned hasn't allowed me to go past 20-30km/h sometimes.

Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is well-studied. It turns out that the 85th percentile speed (the speed where 85% of drivers are below that speed, 15% above) is nearly insensitive to speed limit. Road design is the biggest single determinant of travel speed. http://www.lsp.org/pdf/troopc85thSpeed.pdf

Amazing insights: > Won’t raising the speed limit cause people to drive faster and cause more crashes? > The Federal Highway Administration studied nearly 200 roads in 22 states where speed limits were raised, lowered or left unchanged. Prior to the speed limit change, 55 percent of drivers exceeded the posted speed limits. After speed limits were raised or lowered as much as 20 mph, there was a slight change in spee…

This is for federal highways, traffic in a city should not go faster than 25mph in most shared spaces. Motorways is a different subject, but there should only be overpasses or resegined roads and traffic lights for such places.

Re: Police Say Uber Is Likely Not at Fault for Self-Driving Car Fatality in Arizona

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Oh, and they speed. 3mph variance is perfectly normal even on modern cruise control. And even on most modern cards, what you see on the speedometer is often off by ~1 mph at low speeds, and even more at higher speeds. (This is the reason you will often see people talk about 'GPS verified' speeds when it comes to talking about the top speed they have achieved in a car). Federal law in the US only requires they be acc…

> 3mph variance is perfectly normal even on modern cruise control. That'd be a variance between true ground speed and the speed as estimated by the car. Chances are that the 38mph number came from the car itself, so there should be no "variance", leave alone 3mph over the limit. Modern cruise controls are perfectly capable of maintaining set speed, even at a considerable downhill.

> Chances are that the 38mph number came from the car itself, so there should be no "variance", leave alone 3mph over the limit.

My understanding, which may be incorrect, is that the 38mph number came from GPS recording, and that "cruise control" in Uber's self driving vehicles is not based on GPS speed, due to the impact poor/loss off GPS signal would impact it.

>Modern cruise controls are perfectly capable of maintaining set speed, even at a considerable downhill.

I'm not particularly handy with repairing cars, but I have a pretty decent understanding of how cruise control systems work due to nerding out on it when I bought a car with adaptive cruise control. Everything I have read on the design of cruise control says this simply isn't the case, because it isn't even a design goal. Much more important in the design is keeping close to it while maximizing fuel efficiency and driver comfort, and even in modern cruise control not all systems have access to the brakes, which would be required for keeping it at the set speed going considerably downhill. Anecdotally, all of the cars I have owned fit this and do not keep my vehicle at exactly the set speed, including the most recent one with ACC.

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