China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#581

Post by mirimir » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 1:32 AM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #554

mirimir wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are lumpers and splitters, and I tend to be a splitter. But anyway, should one judge China based on Western principles and values. If so, what would be the basis for that? And if not, should one judge China based on principles and values of ? I don't see the basis for that, either. However, it is of course valid for Chinese to judge their own country, based on whatever principles and values they might hol…

Without getting into the weeds of what exactly we should say they are, I would argue there is such a thing as a set of universal principles that anyone should be held to (to take the trite, obvious example, we shouldn't excuse the Holocaust on the basis of some distinct German values).

No, there's no excusing the Holocaust. But it is useful to understand how the Nazis got to that point. Wars make people crazy. WWI was a horrorshow. And just a couple decades later, WWII. Germany felt beaten and cornered, and the Nazis offered hope. And then things got totally out of hand.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#582

Post by door3 » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 2:40 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #496

door3 wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>blacks disproportionately commit crimes, especially violent crimes. This is a racist lie. If you control for socioeconomic factors, the difference totally vanishes.

If a correlation is completely explained by controlling for a third factor, that doesn't make the original correlation a lie. If black people are poorer than average and poor people commit disproportionately more crimes, blacks committing disproportionately more crimes is just what you'd expect. What knowing the controlling variable does is give you additional information about what interventions are likely to change…

>If a correlation is completely explained by controlling for a third factor, that doesn't make the original correlation a lie.

The implication of "black people commit more crimes" is that there is something about being black that involves a degree of criminality. It is a very poor way of describing the issue. A much better framing is "black people in the US are disempowered socially, politically and economically and black communities are ignored by US social policy." Another, far more useful framing of the issue, that I hardly ever hear is that black people are more often the victims of crimes.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#583

Post by jjcc » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 2:55 AM UTC

foodislove wrote: post #504

jjcc wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree with you on this point. Most westerners don't have knowledge about Chinese "hukou" system and easily mislead by false information.

Most "Chinese" online seem to be paid trolls who deliberately feed misleading and false information. Either that or they have a switch in the brain where any critisism of China leads to a nationalistic brain freeze where they regurgitate silly propoganda. The Hukou system is broken and inconsistent. Getting mine revoked was the biggest pain the ass. I'm sure there are anecdotal evidence to support your view, but the…

I'm not saying the original poster the "Chinese expat" make up a story. But he gives misleading information. Claim it's fake maybe not accurate.

1.The national ID is revoked only under some special case that the citizen is believed to be leave the country and give up the citizenship.Not for short term stay like visit/travel. For those whose Chinese national ID being revoked, they are not the equivalent of expat in Western country although technically you can insist it's expat. Again as you said the policies in China varied from place to place and even from time to time. Many emigrant such as aged family reunion emigrant can even keep their national IDs

2.China becomes a business orientated society. There's no reason to exclude passport owners to buying a train ticket online if there's a way to do it. The difficulty here is the cost of passport reader which is monopolized by only few US and European manufactures that only border control agencies can afford, while resident ID readers can be purchased from multiple domestic providers competing for quality and price. It's pure technical and economical reason, not because a regime want to do sth against its own people.

Your thoughts about somebody being paid (maybe with wu mao) is interesting and also a quite common belief

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#584

Post by gwenzek » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 4:06 AM UTC

api wrote: post #109

walterbell wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like every other country, they want a healthy economy, which requires innovation. China's proposed social credit system would be counterproductive to innovation, i.e. the cost may be too high.

There's an easy solution to this: create a two-tier society in which the wealthy, highly educated, and highly productive / inventive are permitted to exist under relative freedom in "economic development zones" or similar while the rest of the population is kept under totalitarian rule. In other words create comparatively free theme parks for the professional class.

Interestingly, in 19884 the government do the opposite. The workforce have some leeway (booze and sex) while the middle class (the one that could see through the party lies and revolt) is under permanent surveillance.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#585

Post by jm__87 » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 4:10 AM UTC

This comment section.. wow.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#586

Post by allthenews » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 7:44 AM UTC

door3 wrote: post #582

yorwba wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a correlation is completely explained by controlling for a third factor, that doesn't make the original correlation a lie. If black people are poorer than average and poor people commit disproportionately more crimes, blacks committing disproportionately more crimes is just what you'd expect. What knowing the controlling variable does is give you additional information about what interventions are likely to change…

>If a correlation is completely explained by controlling for a third factor, that doesn't make the original correlation a lie. The implication of "black people commit more crimes" is that there is something about being black that involves a degree of criminality. It is a very poor way of describing the issue. A much better framing is "black people in the US are disempowered socially, politically and economically and…

>The implication of "black people commit more crimes" is that there is something about being black that involves a degree of criminality

It sounds like you are the racist here.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#587

Post by emodendroket » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 11:42 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #581

emodendroket wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without getting into the weeds of what exactly we should say they are, I would argue there is such a thing as a set of universal principles that anyone should be held to (to take the trite, obvious example, we shouldn't excuse the Holocaust on the basis of some distinct German values).

No, there's no excusing the Holocaust. But it is useful to understand how the Nazis got to that point. Wars make people crazy. WWI was a horrorshow. And just a couple decades later, WWII. Germany felt beaten and cornered, and the Nazis offered hope. And then things got totally out of hand.

But if you want to understand it, I think appeals to German essentialism would be among the worst ways.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#588

Post by woolvalley » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #508

emodendroket wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the idea that it "isn't useful to lump in China with Asia overall" because, in fact, there is a lot of commonality between Chinese culture and other Asian cultures.

Well, there are lumpers and splitters, and I tend to be a splitter. But anyway, should one judge China based on Western principles and values. If so, what would be the basis for that? And if not, should one judge China based on principles and values of ? I don't see the basis for that, either. However, it is of course valid for Chinese to judge their own country, based on whatever principles and values they might hol…

Also there are counter examples of singapore, hong kong, macau and taiwan to show, no, chinese people are not culturally prone to creating a '1984' dystopia.

You can split hairs saying 'it used to be more authoritarian', 'one party has been in power for a long time', or 'it used to be under the nominal control of a western state' since no place is 1:1, but in the end it shows typical chinese people do not want it either.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#589

Post by ygaf » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

ygaf wrote: post #573

jonathanyc wrote: post #294

Once again, I’m disappointed in how quickly the comments on these articles about China doing horrible things devolves into defense of America. It’s sort of like a reverse whataboutism. Ideally learning about what bad things other countries are doing would allow us to look at what similar things we do in our own country and then work to improve things. Instead the opposite seems to happen, and we actually draw a line…

This is hilarious. When whataboutism is convenient to the self-righteous, what then exists is "reverse whataboutism".

I'm not banned? I had the thought that jonathanyc was an actual HN admin.

Either way, having thought I was walking into a ban, I'm shaping up and won't simply contribute negativity. (I still believe HN threads aren't supposed to derail in topic, unless an actual admin conveys otherwise)

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#590

Post by l3i2 » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

http://www.asiaone.com/china/woman-china-delays-high-speed-t...

If you read this article, you will at least understand the reason why they introduce such law.

With 1.6 billion people, it's common to see chaos when a single person doesn't follow the rules, that woman in the news is a typical example. She didn't get any punishment from the railway company, nor the police can do anything about her behaviour, simply because there is no such law exists. In the end, she got suspended from her job as a primary teacher!