At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre • Hacker News Board

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#171

Post by simonh » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 6:55 AM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #165

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you didn't mean it, from your later comments, but you came across as saying we shouldn't only talk about My Lai because the other side did bad things too. Yes, they did bad things, but it doesn't excuse us. We claim we are better. Just like in the Iraq War 2 and our prisons where we treated people horribly, it doesn't excuse it just because someone else also did bad things. I think that's a core principal. It…

> We claim we are better. That's exactly the point made. The US IS better. Better than the Nazis, better than North Vietnam/Vietnam, better than China (and frankly better than all European states during and immediately after WWI/II at least). Better than North Korea. Better than South Africa. With better I mean "how people are treated", in the human rights, in general, and only as part of government policy. And yes,…

Ive looked carefully through he comments here and nobody is making any false equivalency In the terms you describe, or denying what you say about the US overall.

I don’t see why an article or subsequent discussion about a horrible crime committed by US soldiers, subject to an attempted coverup by the US army and limply prosecuted afterwards needs to also say how nice the US is otherwise. It doesn’t matter how nice it is otherwise. It’s got nothing to do with the issue at hand, any more than if it had happened in any other country.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#172

Post by simonh » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 7:00 AM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #120

sailingparrot wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really think she/he was suggesting that the US is setting up landmines in Vietnam 50 years after the war? Landmines can kill people a very long time after being deployed you know... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/18/vietnam-unexpl...

So you really think people 50 years ago are 'the US'? That was my point. Thus the highlight.

Do you really think the US government bears no responsibility for the actions of the US government 50 years ago and the consequences today? Would you extend that to other governments too? In what circumstances would you not? What Cut off period do you think is right generally?

For example do you think the US has no responsibility towards Pacific Islanders whose islands are now lethally radioactive due to nuclear tests 50 years ago, and can reasonably wash its hands of any problems arising from that today?

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#173

Post by pimmen » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 8:23 AM UTC

The My Lai massacre is an important event because what happened to the soldiers who committed the atrocities (nothing) echoes through history. Nobody is still being punished for what happened in Haditha, Abu Ghraib or Gitmo.

During the 1940s the US prosecuted Japanese and German war criminals by adhering to the Yamashita principle and disqualifying the Nuremberg defense; basically, commanders are always responsible for crimes that their soldiers commit if they aren't actively combating it themselves (this is what convicted Yamashita, who occupied the Philippines) and you can't blame your CO when you commit war crimes (which convicted a lot of people in Nuremberg).

But, after the My Lai massacre, the soldiers could successfully use the Nuremberg defense themselves. Their CO was also not under the Yamashita principle because he only served three years of a commuted sentence. The My Lai massacre should not be forgotten because it's a reminder that it's been more than 50 years now, when is America going to start measuring up to the moral standards it claims it has?

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#174

Post by chrischen » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 8:40 AM UTC

verylittlemeat wrote: post #32

chrischen wrote: post #7

Wow had no idea the Vietnam was this bad (bad as in how bad the Americans were). Almost makes the invasion of Iraq look noble. I went through the US educational system and while we know about the Vietnam war, the protesters, this is definitely not the picture of the war that we were given. It's basically propaganda and history rewriting what they are doing here, even though the US didn't even technically win the war.…

>I went through the US educational system and while we know about the Vietnam war, the protesters, this is definitely not the picture of the war that we were given. I just want to be one anecdotal voice to disagree with this statement. I went to a city university and my American history class 1945-present included a curriculum with media such as: A People's History of the United States The Fog of War (documentary) He…

I think a college class would have to delve into the topic a bit more.

But given a high school history curriculum being limited they'd have to pick and choose what to cover, and the majority of American kids would end up with the highly distilled, pro-American leaning retelling. I went to high school in the mid-west (Michigan) in a probably center-left leaning (though in the last election probably Trump-leaning) area.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#175

Post by chrischen » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 8:43 AM UTC

sho wrote: post #159

chrischen wrote: post #7

Wow had no idea the Vietnam was this bad (bad as in how bad the Americans were). Almost makes the invasion of Iraq look noble. I went through the US educational system and while we know about the Vietnam war, the protesters, this is definitely not the picture of the war that we were given. It's basically propaganda and history rewriting what they are doing here, even though the US didn't even technically win the war.…

> No wonder why China is fiercely anti-American What gives you this idea? I don't think Chinese policy is particularly anti-American. Sure, they're not a lap-dog like Japan, but I don't see their policy being informed by any particular animosity towards the USA.

They are rivals. They'll smile and nod and but will no way be pushed around by foreign influence.

It's not specific to American imperialism, but to foreign imperialism in the past.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#176

Post by chrischen » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 8:46 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #39

chrischen wrote: post #7

Wow had no idea the Vietnam was this bad (bad as in how bad the Americans were). Almost makes the invasion of Iraq look noble. I went through the US educational system and while we know about the Vietnam war, the protesters, this is definitely not the picture of the war that we were given. It's basically propaganda and history rewriting what they are doing here, even though the US didn't even technically win the war.…

I am not sure that one massacre, no matter how bad it is, defines a whole war. The Vietnam war was meant to block the expansion of communism which at that time had a fair amount of blood on its hand.

I'm not sure the blocking of communism is as noble as a cause it was proclaimed to be.

Most of the anti-communist fear in the US was pointless, and arbitrary. Communism only served as a threat to the US in so as much as it was on paper not what the US adopted, and therefore the US had to be against it to maintain its own legitimacy. But in the end there's not much difference between the US and China (a so called communist country) except that China is less developed and the market is more tightly controlled than the US market. But as you can see China has trended to the mix of market freedom and control similar to that of the US and the world didn't end.

In practice, communist countries were more authoritarian military dictatorships more than anything and if the country did bad things it was more or less due to the regime rather than communism. And the US would have been fine with such regimes at the time so long as it wasn't communist. For example, South Korea was a dictatorship until the 90s.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#177

Post by mmjaa » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 11:00 AM UTC

angersock wrote: post #134

mmjaa wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has been at war, somewhere in the world, since its inception as a nation. It has dropped one bomb every twenty minutes, mostly on innocent people, for the last 3 decades. The US currently has the world ensnared in its remote military bases, and is a number one cause of trouble in the world. It regularly defeats real democracies using covert means, installing its own puppets to function as feudal lords. When co…

What you say may be true...but it has worked out pretty well for us.

For some of you. For a majority of Americans, however, living in poverty - not so. Its very much an imperialist scenario. Sure, you have your bread and circuses. But don't look behind the curtain in any of your major metropolitan cities. The sight of 80,000 people, families, living on the streets in LA won't make you proud.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#178

Post by zombieprocesses » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 1:52 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #39

chrischen wrote: post #7

Wow had no idea the Vietnam was this bad (bad as in how bad the Americans were). Almost makes the invasion of Iraq look noble. I went through the US educational system and while we know about the Vietnam war, the protesters, this is definitely not the picture of the war that we were given. It's basically propaganda and history rewriting what they are doing here, even though the US didn't even technically win the war.…

I am not sure that one massacre, no matter how bad it is, defines a whole war. The Vietnam war was meant to block the expansion of communism which at that time had a fair amount of blood on its hand.

> I am not sure that one massacre, no matter how bad it is, defines a whole war.

Considering that millions of vietnamese were massacred during the whole war, you are right. My Lai was just a microcosm of an even greater atrocity.

> The Vietnam war was meant to block the expansion of communism which at that time had a fair amount of blood on its hand.

So using that logic, vietnam could invade the US because we have a fair amount of blood on our hands?

Why didn't we invade australia which was wiping out the aborigines?

It just seems like rationalizations just for the sake of rationalization. Like we invaded iraq to bring freedom.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#179

Post by candiodari » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 2:04 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #171

candiodari wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We claim we are better. That's exactly the point made. The US IS better. Better than the Nazis, better than North Vietnam/Vietnam, better than China (and frankly better than all European states during and immediately after WWI/II at least). Better than North Korea. Better than South Africa. With better I mean "how people are treated", in the human rights, in general, and only as part of government policy. And yes,…

Ive looked carefully through he comments here and nobody is making any false equivalency In the terms you describe, or denying what you say about the US overall. I don’t see why an article or subsequent discussion about a horrible crime committed by US soldiers, subject to an attempted coverup by the US army and limply prosecuted afterwards needs to also say how nice the US is otherwise. It doesn’t matter how nice it…

Really ? I get that message very strongly just looking at the very post above me (and the other comments by the same user in the same thread).

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#180

Post by NotSammyHagar » Sun, Mar 18, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #165

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you didn't mean it, from your later comments, but you came across as saying we shouldn't only talk about My Lai because the other side did bad things too. Yes, they did bad things, but it doesn't excuse us. We claim we are better. Just like in the Iraq War 2 and our prisons where we treated people horribly, it doesn't excuse it just because someone else also did bad things. I think that's a core principal. It…

> We claim we are better. That's exactly the point made. The US IS better. Better than the Nazis, better than North Vietnam/Vietnam, better than China (and frankly better than all European states during and immediately after WWI/II at least). Better than North Korea. Better than South Africa. With better I mean "how people are treated", in the human rights, in general, and only as part of government policy. And yes,…

I'm not saying there is an equivalence between the nazis and modern day us. I am just pointing out that when we do horrible things, we have to not deny it, not say it's not a big deal because someone else did something worse. We aren't equivalent, but we do make mistakes.