At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre • Hacker News Board

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#151

Post by xenophonf » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #121

kss238 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment was about mines left behind from the Vietnam war, not present day.

Actually the comment was about present-day 'the US'.

I can't claim to be directly responsible for the actions of my countrymen fifty years ago, but not doing anything about their misdeeds today gives my tacit approval to those past actions and to their ongoing costs so unfairly burdening present-day Vietnamese. Plus, I think it would be a nice bit of diplomacy for the U.S. to fund mine clearing efforts in Vietnam.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#152

Post by refurb » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #145

vietnamese59 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's a popular series, and I haven't gotten my dad's response to it because he hasn't watched it, but many war veterans and South Vietnamese military members say it's not a very balanced documentary. https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/29/veterans-angry-disapp... https://www.military.com/off-duty/television/2017/10/02/vete...

It’s almost like the veterans have a difficult time being objective. I’ll wait for your dad’s review before getting too critical though.

Are you sure? I've watched a bit of it and it seems to approach the war with 20/20 hindsight. "Oh of course it was wrong to be there".

It ignores some of the mindset that got us there in the first place.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#153

Post by slantedview » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #3

How do people manage to condemn this type of thing but not the 100,000s murdered in Iraq because of the US invasion? I can't work out how Americans think being proud of their soldiers - both left and right wing people are. Is there something I don't know?

100,000s were murdered in Vietnam as well. That the US played a role in further mass murders in Cambodia, Laos, Indonesia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen, and so on, is the legacy of the US never having the honesty to own up to its actions. It should all be condemned.

The problem is that the political elite in the US doesn't see it that way. Military leaders from Vietnam who committed mass murder were awarded commendations. Soldiers who raped and tortured women and children were given awards for kill counts. A Secretary of State whose actions led to the genocide of millions of people still enjoys political celebrity. And a President who killed tens of thousands of civilians by remote control was given a Peace Prize. This is America.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#154

Post by sho » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

vietnamese59 wrote: post #98

namelost wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but the actions of the Viet Cong do not excuse the crimes committed the US, and neither does the nationality of your parents. To this day, many are maimed and killed by US land mines in the region, and the US does not give a shit.

You're setting up a straw man to an argument I never made. All I'm telling you is how my dad, his brothers, and the vast majority of his first generation Vietnamese friends (who arrived as refugees) feel about America and the Vietnam War. Despite what you may think, they wholeheartedly support America. If you don't believe me, you should try visiting Little Saigon on Bolsa Avenue in Orange Country and ask them what t…

> try visiting Little Saigon on Bolsa Avenue in Orange Country

> If you want to get assaulted [..] try bringing Vietnam's current flag and parade it around

What a bizarre argument. Of course you're going to find pro-USA sentiment in the very people who decided to move to the USA. I hope you realise that the opinions of a few immigrants in the states are going to be pretty unrepresentative of those who actually live in, you know, Vietnam.

Speak to actual vietnamese people from actual vietnam and I don't think you'll find they are overwhelmingly pro-USA, nor at all interested in the flag of south vietnam. I'm no expert, but my experience is that they're mildly positive in attitude, mostly due to pop culture. The war was a long time ago and most people are just getting on with their lives.

Many immigrant communities foster a kind of "nostalgic nationalism" as a coping strategy when adapting to a profoundly different environment. It dates pretty rapidly. I very much doubt many of the 90+ million people in Vietnam even know of "Little Saigon", nor care overmuch about the opinions of a bunch of old-timers sitting in a mall in California.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#155

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:59 PM UTC

vietnamese59 wrote: post #86

megous wrote: post #22

Sadly, similar massacres are happening almost daily in this world. One day you see someone start a twitter campaing like #iamstillalive, the other you see a reports of him being killed in an airstrike with countless other people. People are daily begging on twitter for their lives, to be spared, to someone help them. You can easily find similar images from what you see in this article, from yesterday, day prior, almo…

My parents are Vietnamese. My dad actually fought in the war with the South Vietnamese army alongside US troops. He's a lifelong Republican, as were all of his brothers who also fought, as well as the vast majority of his friends and their families who arrived as refugees. They supported the war. They saw the US as liberators against the communists who wanted to murder them and take over their country. They love Amer…

[deleted]

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#156

Post by simonh » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 7:02 PM UTC

vietnamese59 wrote: post #86

megous wrote: post #22

Sadly, similar massacres are happening almost daily in this world. One day you see someone start a twitter campaing like #iamstillalive, the other you see a reports of him being killed in an airstrike with countless other people. People are daily begging on twitter for their lives, to be spared, to someone help them. You can easily find similar images from what you see in this article, from yesterday, day prior, almo…

My parents are Vietnamese. My dad actually fought in the war with the South Vietnamese army alongside US troops. He's a lifelong Republican, as were all of his brothers who also fought, as well as the vast majority of his friends and their families who arrived as refugees. They supported the war. They saw the US as liberators against the communists who wanted to murder them and take over their country. They love Amer…

I’m sorry, but this is blatant whataboutism. The crimes of the Vietnamese Communists are inexcusable, but so was My Lai. The linked article was simply an American media article about something the American military did. We should be able to discuss it purely in those terms.

What another army did somewhere else to other people simply isn’t pertinent in that context, even if in the same war, unless it directly relates to the circumstances at My Lai and the reasons for it happening. You aren’t saying VC atrocities excuse My Lai, or that they caused My a Lai, so how are they relevant? What context do they add to the decisions made by those American soldiers or the army cover up or subsequent investigation? I just don’t see how it would have helped the article other than to muddy and obscure the issues of discipline and accountability in the US military the massacre raises and which the article discusses.

The responsibility of the VC for their actions just isn’t a necessary part of that dialogue and is an important and necessary subject, but for another time and place. At time and place in which massacres carried out elsewhere by Americans also simply wouldn’t be relevant, nor excuse anything done by the VC. And no I’m not making any false equivalency. That’s the point.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#157

Post by watwut » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 7:08 PM UTC

fractallyte wrote: post #18

Red_Tarsius wrote: post #2

I was surprised by how much war footage and gut-wrenching videos I could find online. More people should be exposed to those documents as a form of shock therapy. It gives weight and meaning to words so effortlessly spoken by our leaders. It might also help young people have a little more empathy for actual individuals, as opposed to abstract demographics. The article reminds me of War against War! . It's a 1924 anti…

Most of the big wars were/are ultimately started (or allowed to start) by politicians. The word 'politician' can be thought of as a portmanteau: political technician . So the responsibility is on us to enforce this distinction: who among our political technicians is actually qualified to lead ? Heinlein's Starship Troopers had the right idea. I wish just one nation in the world would implement it. Maybe it would lead…

Where do you think politicians come from? People who started WWII were WWI veterans. They were not born career politicians either.

Also, soldiers tend to be more pro-war, statistically speaking. Pacifists tend not to join armies.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#158

Post by watwut » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 7:19 PM UTC

fractallyte wrote: post #59

7952 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ironic how that is a mirror image of fascist beliefs about military virtue. They wanted to give power to veterans so that wars could be started and won! They wanted to suppress the influence of weak willed peacniks. It is ironic that this could be reversed to imply that rationality means peace. Heinlein had some pretty fascist ideas, and books like starship troopers project that in a comfortable form. It is eas…

Heinlein's point was that one's vote is a huge responsibility, and that privilege must be earned: by demonstrably placing the needs of one's country above individual wellbeing. Thus only military veterans could participate in governance. Militarism doesn't automatically equate to fascism. There are further ideas in this: that, having experienced a war, a (typical) person would never again allow such a thing to happen…

But of course, by allowing only people who have ties to one particular organization, you give too much advantage to that organization.

Only soldiers interests will be represented, nobody elses. And this matters crutially a lot. Moreover army spends a lot of time indonctrinating people - training, military discipline and so on. It changes them and their opinions.

Germany before WWII gave government jobs to ex-soldiers. Veterans being the ones who defined culture of those institutions had (according to historians) an impact on ease with which those institutions could be taken over and used for authoritarian purposes.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#159

Post by sho » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #7

Wow had no idea the Vietnam was this bad (bad as in how bad the Americans were). Almost makes the invasion of Iraq look noble. I went through the US educational system and while we know about the Vietnam war, the protesters, this is definitely not the picture of the war that we were given. It's basically propaganda and history rewriting what they are doing here, even though the US didn't even technically win the war.…

> No wonder why China is fiercely anti-American

What gives you this idea? I don't think Chinese policy is particularly anti-American. Sure, they're not a lap-dog like Japan, but I don't see their policy being informed by any particular animosity towards the USA.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#160

Post by sho » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

pensiveforns wrote: post #53

ekianjo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No wonder why China is fiercely anti-American You know what happened during the Cultural Revolution in China right? Yet hardly anyone is talking about it.

People in China talk about it all the time. But you do have to speak Mandarin or the local dialect to hear it. Many don't want to talk about it in English because it gets annoying to hear expats and tourists preaching to them.

It's all over the literature too. Hell, half of Three Body Problem, the darling of a few years ago, is actually about the Cultural Revolution. No spoilers but suffice to say that the poisoned seeds sown during the ruinous waste of the Cultural Revolution precipitate everything in the story.