At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre • Hacker News Board

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#91

Post by lttlrck » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

fractallyte wrote: post #59

7952 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ironic how that is a mirror image of fascist beliefs about military virtue. They wanted to give power to veterans so that wars could be started and won! They wanted to suppress the influence of weak willed peacniks. It is ironic that this could be reversed to imply that rationality means peace. Heinlein had some pretty fascist ideas, and books like starship troopers project that in a comfortable form. It is eas…

Heinlein's point was that one's vote is a huge responsibility, and that privilege must be earned: by demonstrably placing the needs of one's country above individual wellbeing. Thus only military veterans could participate in governance. Militarism doesn't automatically equate to fascism. There are further ideas in this: that, having experienced a war, a (typical) person would never again allow such a thing to happen…

if that works as intended then as time passes the voter base becomes smaller and smaller. That doesn’t sound very good.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#92

Post by rangibaby » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:01 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #81

rqs wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Link: https://twitter.com/NYDailyNews/status/974073948299284481 Weird to say but now you know why people in China treasures peace a little bit more than freedom. Massacres are common during Japanese invasion[0], and nobody stood up for civilians. The result of that was people got murdered village after village and then burned or lefted there for animals. That collective experience in some degree shaped the political…

Occasionally, a few people (foreigners) did stand up for civilians, although in the scale of events, it did not have large impact. Perhaps the most peculiar of them is the story of John Rabe, "a Nazi hero". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rabe

> “Nazi hero”

Persons are always kind. It is people that do horrible things.

Whether it’s the angry mob ready to stone Mary Magdalene or US soldiers wasting civilians at My Lai the principle is the same.

The idea that because someone is on the other team in a war he is a monster is wartime propaganda used to justify and convince good persons to commit atrocities.

There is another comment to this story where someone applies exactly this kind of thinking to the North Vietnamese.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#93

Post by subpixel » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:01 PM UTC

vietnamese59 wrote: post #86

megous wrote: post #22

Sadly, similar massacres are happening almost daily in this world. One day you see someone start a twitter campaing like #iamstillalive, the other you see a reports of him being killed in an airstrike with countless other people. People are daily begging on twitter for their lives, to be spared, to someone help them. You can easily find similar images from what you see in this article, from yesterday, day prior, almo…

My parents are Vietnamese. My dad actually fought in the war with the South Vietnamese army alongside US troops. He's a lifelong Republican, as were all of his brothers who also fought, as well as the vast majority of his friends and their families who arrived as refugees. They supported the war. They saw the US as liberators against the communists who wanted to murder them and take over their country. They love Amer…

Ken Burn's recent series on Vietnam is very well made and speaks with participants and stakeholders from across the ideological spectrum. Highly recommended: https://www.netflix.com/title/70202579

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#94

Post by mannschott » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:09 PM UTC

fractallyte wrote: post #59

7952 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ironic how that is a mirror image of fascist beliefs about military virtue. They wanted to give power to veterans so that wars could be started and won! They wanted to suppress the influence of weak willed peacniks. It is ironic that this could be reversed to imply that rationality means peace. Heinlein had some pretty fascist ideas, and books like starship troopers project that in a comfortable form. It is eas…

Heinlein's point was that one's vote is a huge responsibility, and that privilege must be earned: by demonstrably placing the needs of one's country above individual wellbeing. Thus only military veterans could participate in governance. Militarism doesn't automatically equate to fascism. There are further ideas in this: that, having experienced a war, a (typical) person would never again allow such a thing to happen…

> Heinlein's point was that one's vote is a huge responsibility, and that privilege must be earned: by demonstrably placing the needs of one's country above individual wellbeing.

I find the unspoken assumption that the "needs of one's country" always mean going to war and killing other people curious. Is that the only thing that countries need? What about jobs, infrastructure, health care, pensions, education, social insurance, good laws, and competent government among many other things.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#95

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:13 PM UTC

verylittlemeat wrote: post #33

lopmotr wrote: post #3

How do people manage to condemn this type of thing but not the 100,000s murdered in Iraq because of the US invasion? I can't work out how Americans think being proud of their soldiers - both left and right wing people are. Is there something I don't know?

During the Vietnam war that is what happened. Soldiers were treated like baby killers upon returning to the US. There was a sort of rebranding of the American solider after that catastrophe. The American citizen is now supposed to see the American solider as a utilitarian third party cog in a system where soldiers don't make decisions they just execute them. So if you're unhappy with the war you take out your disappr…

[deleted]

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#96

Post by system16 » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:14 PM UTC

vietnamese59 wrote: post #86

megous wrote: post #22

Sadly, similar massacres are happening almost daily in this world. One day you see someone start a twitter campaing like #iamstillalive, the other you see a reports of him being killed in an airstrike with countless other people. People are daily begging on twitter for their lives, to be spared, to someone help them. You can easily find similar images from what you see in this article, from yesterday, day prior, almo…

My parents are Vietnamese. My dad actually fought in the war with the South Vietnamese army alongside US troops. He's a lifelong Republican, as were all of his brothers who also fought, as well as the vast majority of his friends and their families who arrived as refugees. They supported the war. They saw the US as liberators against the communists who wanted to murder them and take over their country. They love Amer…

To be fair, the Vietnamese communities in Southern California are stuck in a time bubble. Vietnam has changed dramatically since the Vietnam War (or War of American Aggression as it's called in Vietnam), but the Vietnamese diaspora's image of the country has not. It's not the same place, and the government - while nowhere near perfect - is not the same as it was 50 years ago. The country still has many problems, but it is getting better, and the country's youth have a very healthy skepticism of government (unlike mainland China).

Also, let's not try to paint the former South leadership as noble. Buddhists weren't self-immolating in the streets of Saigon because of the communists, and the victim in the infamous photo being shot at point blank in the head was a Viet Cong.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#97

Post by LifeLiverTransp » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

coupdejarnac wrote: post #82

fractallyte wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the big wars were/are ultimately started (or allowed to start) by politicians. The word 'politician' can be thought of as a portmanteau: political technician . So the responsibility is on us to enforce this distinction: who among our political technicians is actually qualified to lead ? Heinlein's Starship Troopers had the right idea. I wish just one nation in the world would implement it. Maybe it would lead…

Written by a guy who never saw combat. Anyway, one thing I got from the book, even if Heinlein never explicitly made this point, is that public officials need to perform some service or somehow show that they merit being our leaders. People who did poorly in intro uni economics should perhaps not be determining national economic policy, for example.

I agree, so someone who did poorly at communism and socialism studies in the former ussr should not become a factory leader or economics minister- because if a university is good at something it is determinating people who are great knowledge repeaters and aggregators, but not determinating who is a good ad-hoc manager of completely knew scenarios.

I would rather prefer pure luck to that intelectual slaughterhouse suggested by the parent, with all the fency problems a goverment would inherit in academia. I can only imagine, what would happen, if some Aspi driven towards perfectionism regarding roadtolls, would do to a transportation-ministry- to compose the perfect system.

I rather have non government then this government.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#98

Post by vietnamese59 » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

namelost wrote: post #88

vietnamese59 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are Vietnamese. My dad actually fought in the war with the South Vietnamese army alongside US troops. He's a lifelong Republican, as were all of his brothers who also fought, as well as the vast majority of his friends and their families who arrived as refugees. They supported the war. They saw the US as liberators against the communists who wanted to murder them and take over their country. They love Amer…

I'm sorry but the actions of the Viet Cong do not excuse the crimes committed the US, and neither does the nationality of your parents. To this day, many are maimed and killed by US land mines in the region, and the US does not give a shit.

You're setting up a straw man to an argument I never made. All I'm telling you is how my dad, his brothers, and the vast majority of his first generation Vietnamese friends (who arrived as refugees) feel about America and the Vietnam War. Despite what you may think, they wholeheartedly support America.

If you don't believe me, you should try visiting Little Saigon on Bolsa Avenue in Orange Country and ask them what they think of the USA. Look at the flags they use (South Vietnam and the USA). If you want to get assaulted (I highly don't recommend this), try bringing Vietnam's current flag and parade it around.

EDIT:

to andrepd: Again, you keep setting up straw man arguments. It's very easy to attack someone if you misrepresent their views. I never said anything about excusing massacres.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#99

Post by maxxxxx » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

Erlangolem wrote: post #89

namelost wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but the actions of the Viet Cong do not excuse the crimes committed the US, and neither does the nationality of your parents. To this day, many are maimed and killed by US land mines in the region, and the US does not give a shit.

Just one point: there is no, “The US” as I’ve learned over time. The US is geographically vast, and full of hundreds of millions of people from wildly different backgrounds. Those poeple have politics ranging from Ghengis Khan, to Ghandi. They seem to agree, as a nation, on very little.

That is true for every country so it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Re: At My Lai: The Photographer Who Captured the Massacre

#100

Post by neverartful » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 2:20 PM UTC

lopmotr wrote: post #3

How do people manage to condemn this type of thing but not the 100,000s murdered in Iraq because of the US invasion? I can't work out how Americans think being proud of their soldiers - both left and right wing people are. Is there something I don't know?

"I can't work out how Americans think being proud of their soldiers - both left and right wing people are. Is there something I don't know?"

I believe one of the key points is that it's not the foot soldier who makes the decision to start a war. When the soldier was drafted into the military, they had absolutely NO control whatsoever. In times without the draft (volunteer forces), one may say that individuals have some control by NOT volunteering (enlisting). But even that argument is incomplete.

People enlist in the military for different reasons, and it's not as simple as pro-war vs anti-war sentiment. Some of the reasons why some enlist: economic (to support themselves and their family), learn trade/skills, carry on family legacy, sense of duty to country, to see the world, physical and mental challenge/discipline, become a fighter, coercion by others, etc. Even if a person enlists because they desire combat, that person still doesn't have any authority or ability to start a conflict. Once in combat, there's still a chain of command and accountability.

When a country engages in military conflict, it is due to the decision of politicians. And once the conflict begins, it is the foot soldiers who pay the highest price.

To give a counter-example to the Vietnam war, what would have happened if all of the Allied military forces rebelled and refused to participate in the D-Day invasion of Normandy in WW2? Or even if the US decided to not fight in WW2, despite Pearl Harbor attack?

The officer who gave the command to massacre civilians in My Lai was wrong. Other individuals throughout the conflict inevitably did wrong. I believe that the vast majority of those who fought did so admirably and honorably. And I believe that I can have this opinion and still not be pro-war.