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China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

571–580 of 602 posts

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#571
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You also are repeating a common misconception when It's a misconception that you could avoid being in the felon caste by not breaking laws? That's what he said. He didn't say "if you want to gamble with not joining the felon caste, you have fair odds". Lots of soapboxing ITT, threads should decapitate at the first post with 'systemic' in.

Your use of the term “soapboxing” to describe what was reasonable argument until your appearance and the bizarre thought-terminating cliché that is your fear of the word “systemic” don’t inspire confidence in me that you are here in good faith. I notice your account is also relatively new. Nonetheless, consider this after rereading the GP’s comment. If a doctor told two patients that they could avoid getting cancer b…

>Your use of the term “soapboxing” to describe what was reasonable argument

You conspicuously failed to substantiate his "misconception".

>It has been shown time and time again black Americans are disproportionately arrested and sentenced.

I could not in all charitability/good faith (all your efforts to troll noted btw) extract a relevant point here. If they are disproportionately arrested having committed a crime, that has nothing to do with allthenew's whole post. If one charitably adds the context that in america you can also be arrested for committing no crime at all, then you've switched a basic premise of his post in 'arguing' it.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#572
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More decentralization leads to more abuses, yes -- but they tend to be of lower magnitude per event. Positions of power tend to attract abusers. Human nature seems to favor consolidation of hierarchies. China is just on a different part of the power cycle than the US. We're at the egalitarian everyone-is-the-same period of the cycle, and people abuse this state of affairs via a variety of ways. China is at the we-mus…

Could you elaborate on your top-left/bottom-right portrait please?

I'll sure try! Here's a picture of what I was visualizing, but explaining why it matters will take some words: https://imgur.com/a/MggDJ I chose weird colors deliberately.

The diagonal line represents policy, or the wedge. In reality it's not always a straight line.

Stymieing bad people is what happens in the left square, empowering good people in the right square. (This left / right correlation with real world political parties is a coincidence. Liberals are often arguing positions to empower good people when conservatives opposition hinges on a claim that they're stymieing bad people, just for different policies (gay rights, abortion and marijuana come to mind).

But for a real world example, The Stoneman Douglas school shooting occurs:

Side1: Restrict gun purchases.

Side2: Give teachers guns.

Here's how I look at this in the context of the portrait. Pink represents keeping guns from bad people, the orange side represents good people having access to have guns. Right down the middle is an aspirational fantasy world where bad people have zero guns and all good people can have all the guns they want. A vertical line on the far right side represents everyone having unrestricted access to every kind of weapon, a vertical line on the far left side represents no one having any weapons at all.

Both sides of the wedge, as it is today, prevents some good people from having access to some weapons and allow a some bad people to have access to some weapons. Flatly restricting guns marginally will marginally reduce the access to guns for both good and bad people. Giving teachers guns will give guns to both good and bad people (some bad people are teachers!). That in particular is a horrible idea, I bet we'd go The fact is, finding out who among us is evil is a battle that we've waged for all of human history. We get better at it and they get better at hiding among us. Evil people, undetected, can do evil with any policy on the graph. If society were to engage in a "moon shot" for advancing our ability to suss out the evil among us, an evil person would almost inevitably misclassify innocent people. It's a really tough problem, but we should probably keep at it.

Responding to the school shooting directly: Appeals to authorities were ignored. Are there enough spurious reports to authorities to justify this? School resource officers were hired to mitigate this situation after columbine, here that mitigation failed completely. Do they need more training, better access to intel? (IE: real time info on shooter movement inside schools, etc.)

Those kinds of questions might be asked, but it's all too easy to derail information gathering and honest discussion by tacking on Side1 or Side2's reactions to it with glue of "and that's why we need to".

What marks a good wedge issue is one where both sides blatantly ignore nuance, and whose solutions have broad collateral damage. The collatoral damage to each opinion should be abhorrent to the other side, and uncomfortable but ignorable to your side.

Another interesting thing that really flummoxes American society are gradients that get transformed into binary policy arguments. Arguments over abortion, healthcare, capital punishment, social security, welfare, civil rights and unions represent the neural network of human society trying to figure out "How much is a human life worth?"

The societal instinct is to say "priceless!" and smartly so, because to admit otherwise IMMEDIATELY creates very bizarre side effects. The abortion debate is basically arguing whether (m1 * mother > m2 * child). We try to argue about what m1 is and what m2 (life begins at ?!?!), and pretend that mother and child are both weighted to infinity.

Going to stop ranting before I accidentally write a book. Hopefully you found this interesting.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#573

Once again, I’m disappointed in how quickly the comments on these articles about China doing horrible things devolves into defense of America. It’s sort of like a reverse whataboutism. Ideally learning about what bad things other countries are doing would allow us to look at what similar things we do in our own country and then work to improve things. Instead the opposite seems to happen, and we actually draw a line…

This is hilarious. When whataboutism is convenient to the self-righteous, what then exists is "reverse whataboutism".

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. I'd agree that there are a lot of people who find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. Then, you have lots of people who work at various tech companies who basically engage in censorship. There are also a lot…

Criticism is not the same as censorship.

Criticism is not the same as censorship.

Forceful de-platforming isn't criticism. Criticism is argument. Force isn't argument. De-monetizing videos for unstated political motivations isn't criticism, it's censorship. Making irrational noise, intimidating, pounding on windows, lighting shops on fire, throwing things through windows -- those things aren't criticism. That is force, and many of those are examples of criminal acts. It's non-governmental censorship.

So many of the things which the Extreme Left use as a means of "convincing" people are the exact same things which bigots of the past did to black people and gay people:

    - exclusion from clubs and professional organizations
    - public rudeness, yelling
    - refusal to serve
    - not renting homes and apartments
    - getting them fired
You can tell the good people from the bad people this way: When the bad people win, it's time for them to unleash their acrimony and to do unto others. When the good people win, they hew to their principles and exercise forbearance and generosity.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. I'd agree that there are a lot of people who find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. Then, you have lots of people who work at various tech companies who basically engage in censorship. There are also a lot…

>A lot of people in the West find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. A lot of people in the West find satisfaction in exercising repugnant authoritarianism. "A lot of" is a conveniently vague quantity. However you quantify it, it's absolutely nothing near the scale of institutional and cultural support for authoritarianism in China.

However you quantify it, it's absolutely nothing near the scale of institutional and cultural support for authoritarianism in China.

However you quantify it, there's far, far too much of it here in the United States and in the Western world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9mkA1GBY2k

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#576
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black people are 12% of the population but over half those imprisoned for drug offenses, and GP's advice is, "If you wish to stay out of the felon caste, do not break obvious laws, like those regarding drug possession." I mean, that's bigotry. That's something I expect to read on the_donald.

If two groups of people commit the same crimes at similar rates, and individuals in one of those groups are imprisoned more frequently than those in the other group, that's unfair on a systematic level. Nobody here said otherwise. What aspect of this situation makes the GP's advice untrue? For any individual in either group, the best way to avoid becoming a felon is to avoid committing felonies.

> For any individual in either group, the best way to avoid becoming a felon is to avoid committing felonies.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here.

For a white, wealthy person, the healthiest life choices are to select a diet based only on the effects of the ingested materials in question, independent of their legal status.

For a black person, the healthiest life choice is instead to make very different dietary choices in order to avoid becoming a felon.

It is simply not the case that individuals in the two groups have the same dynamic re: life choices.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#577
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a bunch of bigoted hogwash. How many times must the particulars of the system be documented and disseminated before these arguments go away completely? If you are white and wealthy, then drug possession is against the law only in vague terms on paper. It is not your practical reality. That's how the drug war has been made into the new jim crow. It's astonishingly simple, and very real. > If you wish to stay out…

I think you're doing more to poison the well of this conversation with the attitude and tone of this post. While I happen to agree more with your position than gp's, there is room for a discussion here. The accusations of bigotry and attempts to wish away different perspectives are counter-productive here. You did not make the point so much better than gp that you get to command them to exit the conversation. GP says…

> Note that neither of your points are necessarily responsive to or mutually exclusive with gp's.

I think you're ignoring the more serious point, though. GP literally advised disadvantaged people to more judiciously follow the stupid laws that were designed in the first place to disadvantage them.

> But your appeal to the youth who might be reading this was just over the top.

Listen, I usually find any sort of "protect the children" narrative nauseating. But in the specific case of racism, I do think it's reckless to spout this stuff on this forum. You and I have perhaps read The New Jim Crow or exposed ourselves to the statistics of the drug war, but a lot of people (sure, young and old) come here from other fora where they're more likely to have followed the breadcrumbs of technological development and might need a little more help before being able to pick apart these basic, bedrock examples of institutional discrimination.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. It's terrible, it's even happening directly in the replies do you. This whole post has been almost totally derailed by whataboutism, and a lot of it is literally textbook : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism > The Guardian deemed whataboutism, as used in Russia, "practic…

Can someone explain to me why it seems like in the past month or so everybody and their mother has re-discovered "whataboutism" and insists on explaining the concept to me?

Baader-Meinhof phenomenon https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human...

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#579
post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone explain to me why it seems like in the past month or so everybody and their mother has re-discovered "whataboutism" and insists on explaining the concept to me?

Baader-Meinhof phenomenon https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human...

OK, but I first read the Wikipedia article linked a long time ago. Probably like ten years ago.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are lumpers and splitters, and I tend to be a splitter. But anyway, should one judge China based on Western principles and values. If so, what would be the basis for that? And if not, should one judge China based on principles and values of ? I don't see the basis for that, either. However, it is of course valid for Chinese to judge their own country, based on whatever principles and values they might hol…

>But anyway, should one judge China based on Western principles and values. If so, what would be the basis for that? I would say that justifying authoritarianism is a perfect example of how appeals to cultural relativism can be dangerous.

There's a distinction that I've been failing horribly to make clearly. I don't like the current Chinese regime. I wouldn't want to live there. And I support projects to help Chinese dissidents.

However, I do my best to avoid judging. Labeling. Appealing to illusory fundamental ideals and standards.

Sure, but maybe "authoritarianism" is just an abstract concept, and there's a lot more to the current Chinese situation th

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