Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

531–540 of 602 posts

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#531

Post by dis-sys »

Chaebixi wrote: post #370
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it se…

> This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country Do you have a cite for this? I know you lose PRC citizenship when gaining another citizenship (and thus a foreign passport), but I was not under the impression that was true for "permanent residents" of other countries. You can be an C…

> I think the law was pretty explicit that Chinese citizens can't fly under their passport

Please stop spreading misleading info. Chinese citizens are allowed to fly domestically using passport, I did that dozens of times. It is also explicitly listed on Civil Aviation Administration of China's web site, link provided below, it is explicitly mentioned on the first line.

http://www.caac.gov.cn/INDEX/HLFW/HLZN/CJ/

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#532

Post by magpi3 »

EpicEng wrote: post #459
emodendroket wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so they're not slaves, they're just people who enjoy no freedom, can be sent to and from facilities at the state's whim, and who are subject to forced labor. I feel like this is a distinction without a difference.

The difference is that you committed a crime, landed yourself in jail, are not the property of the state, and have a finite term to serve. Sounds like a big difference to me.

You mean you have been convicted of a crime. Very important distinction

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#533

Post by whatyoucantsay »

gus_massa wrote: post #467
whatyoucantsay wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have your extensive comments about the CCP on HN caused you any hassles? The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical as ML makes privacy easier and easier to pierce. People who made rational decisions about the risks of sharing various opinions on a small site in 2010 are now locked into the consequences a decade later when both technology and political landscapes have changed. It would be trul…

> The fact that comments cannot be deleted is increasingly unethical ... Just assume that a few seconds after you post a comment Google, Bing, Facebook and a few other major Internet sites have scrapped your comment and are analyzing it. And there a few aggregators that repeat the HN content and alternative UI for HN. And some users make a local copy to run some statistics or detect dupes or just for curiosity. Some…

What you write is a reasonable precaution in 2018. Many, many HN posts and accounts were created before the Snowden revelations, before Xi came to power and before the Charlie Hebdo attack.

Many comments will be and have been mined years after their original posting. It's truly doubtful any country was logging every HN comment in the year you opened your account, for example.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#534

Post by jryle70 »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #424
eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

You're right I hold the US government to a higher standard. When I or many others say "China's doing this but look what the NSA is doing", I am not trying to be a CPC apologist by pointing at the NSA. I am being pro civil liberties by using the CPC as an example of what happens when you don't hold your government to account. America gets to enjoy its relatively high degree of civil liberties precisely because its pop…

I have no problems with criticizing US government agencies for shady or illegal things they did, but there are plenty of posts about those topics already. Doing so in a Chinese related thread comes across as whataboutism, especially because whatever good intention you may have, it is indistinguishable from those that attempt to direct the discussion away from China's issues.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#535

Post by glenstein »

stcredzero wrote: post #463
Sangermaine wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. This is exactly the kind of false equivalency the parent is talking about.

Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. I'd agree that there are a lot of people who find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. Then, you have lots of people who work at various tech companies who basically engage in censorship. There are also a lot…

>A lot of people in the West find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. A lot of people in the West find satisfaction in exercising repugnant authoritarianism.

"A lot of" is a conveniently vague quantity. However you quantify it, it's absolutely nothing near the scale of institutional and cultural support for authoritarianism in China.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#536

Post by glenstein »

Chaebixi wrote: post #392
sosilkj wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False equivalency is a tool that's deployed often on HN these days to steer (or derail) threads. I assume it's due in part to PR/propaganda teams working to manage/manipulate sentiment.

It certainly feels like that, but I doubt this is the direct result of modern propaganda teams. What I think is more likely is the propagandists were so successful decades ago that their whataboutist memes got so integrated into the American/English discourse that many people repeat them unthinkingly.

I agree that it's done by people without realizing they are doing it, or without appreciating the significance of the problem. I would cite the internet impulse for "Actually..."-style comments, and the desire for contrarianism as significant cultural factors as well.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#537

Post by glenstein »

emodendroket wrote: post #446
sosilkj wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False equivalency is a tool that's deployed often on HN these days to steer (or derail) threads. I assume it's due in part to PR/propaganda teams working to manage/manipulate sentiment.

I think that, in any given interaction, the odds you are interacting with a paid government agent are exceptionally low. I personally have been accused of being an agent of so many governments in online discussion that I think the hit rate is extremely low.

Exactly. I agree with others who have suggested that the false equivalency problem probably isn't due to government agents. It's just something that has become baked into internet culture without people appreciating that they are doing it or grasping the type of problem it poses.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#538

Post by glenstein »

meri_dian wrote: post #355
eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

It's fashionable among certain segments of the population to bash America whenever they can. It's almost pathological. Any time something negative is mentioned about something happening outside the US, there is an inevitable deluge of "well yeah but really bad stuff happens in America too!" comments. I feel that most people doing this subconsciously feel like they're acting as a counterweight to the ultra patriotism…

To your point, this exact thing happened in the last major thread on China, where commenters were defending the Tiananmen Square massacre:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15993956

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#540

Post by glenstein »

mirimir wrote: post #508
emodendroket wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with the idea that it "isn't useful to lump in China with Asia overall" because, in fact, there is a lot of commonality between Chinese culture and other Asian cultures.

Well, there are lumpers and splitters, and I tend to be a splitter. But anyway, should one judge China based on Western principles and values. If so, what would be the basis for that? And if not, should one judge China based on principles and values of ? I don't see the basis for that, either. However, it is of course valid for Chinese to judge their own country, based on whatever principles and values they might hol…

>But anyway, should one judge China based on Western principles and values. If so, what would be the basis for that?

I would say that justifying authoritarianism is a perfect example of how appeals to cultural relativism can be dangerous.

Post reply on HN