China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#501

Post by williw » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 5:26 AM UTC

eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

You can indeed open a bank account in China with Chinese passport or even with a foreign passport. There are lots of limitations without the National ID, but do not spread false information if you are not well informed.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#502

Post by cyphar » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 5:53 AM UTC

allthenews wrote: post #271

sangnoir wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at least here the things that can get you into that status are discrete, well-defined actions You would think that, but research shows systemic biases in the justice system throughout the entire funnel: from who gets more police attention, arrests, charges, plea deals and how heavy the sentences are. This is a sign the actions are not well-defined, and quite subjective.

>from who gets more police attention, arrests, charges, plea deals and how heavy the sentences are None of this detracts from the fact that these laws are ultimately relatively clear in their restrictions, compared to China's social score. Theft is theft. Drug possession is drug possession. Had these "unfairly" targeted individuals followed the law, they would not be subject to its penalties. Sure, I recognize that v…

> Theft is theft. Drug possession is drug possession. Had these "unfairly" targeted individuals followed the law, they would not be subject to its penalties.

Not all laws are that simple. Are you aware that not even the US Federal Government is aware of how many laws apply at any given time in a given place[1]? While I'm not going to justify people breaking laws, there are many federal laws that you can see might cause problems for people that could not reasonable have known that a law was being broken. For instance 16 U.S.C 3372[2] (the Lacey Act):

> It is unlawful for any person [...] to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law

So if you have ever bought or been gifted a fish or plant that at any point broke Indian tribal law (even if you didn't know about it, even if it wasn't the law where you received it, even if the plant or fish is legally farmed and sold in another area) you have broken a federal law and you're now a criminal.

Does it make sense to not allow someone to have their constitutional rights if they were given a fish that was caught in an area where that is prohibited by Indian tribal law, and they weren't aware of that? Not all criminals have been convicted under such strange laws, but having such a black-and-white view of criminals stops being as obvious when you look at cases like this.

[1]: https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE?t=279 [2]: http://codes.findlaw.com/us/title-16-conservation/16-usc-sec...

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#503

Post by cnprthrowaway » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 5:54 AM UTC

eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

I've browsed this site for years now, and I do see this pattern in many posts that critique China.

A large number of replies turn the conversation towards how the West is equally bad or worse. Another set of replies talks about how China may inevitably come out ahead.

You can check yourself by Googling 10 HN threads that critique China, versus say, Japan or Poland.

Is China running some indirect social public relations in the style of Russian Facebook ads for Trump? Or is it simply China hawks / nationalists or other casual supporters? My personal conclusion is that there's a decent chance it's a bit of both. And the likelihood of the first may be concerning.

But seriously, check out the pattern and come to your own conclusion.

P.S. If it matters, I'm ethnically Chinese as well, and think well of the Chinese people in general.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#504

Post by foodislove » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 5:56 AM UTC

jjcc wrote: post #479

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it se…

Totally agree with you on this point. Most westerners don't have knowledge about Chinese "hukou" system and easily mislead by false information.

Most "Chinese" online seem to be paid trolls who deliberately feed misleading and false information. Either that or they have a switch in the brain where any critisism of China leads to a nationalistic brain freeze where they regurgitate silly propoganda.

The Hukou system is broken and inconsistent. Getting mine revoked was the biggest pain the ass. I'm sure there are anecdotal evidence to support your view, but the reality is the law is very differently applied depending on where you are in China. I know from first had experience the the original poster is correct.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#505

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:00 AM UTC

EpicEng wrote: post #459

emodendroket wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so they're not slaves, they're just people who enjoy no freedom, can be sent to and from facilities at the state's whim, and who are subject to forced labor. I feel like this is a distinction without a difference.

The difference is that you committed a crime, landed yourself in jail, are not the property of the state, and have a finite term to serve. Sounds like a big difference to me.

Explicit slavery as punishment for a crime and/or for a fixed term is not uncommon; clearly the slaves in US prisons aren't fee simple property of the state, but fee simple isn't the only kind of property relationship.

None of the elements you mention distinguish US penal slavery from historical institutions hmthst were unambiguously recognized as slavery.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#506

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:00 AM UTC

cnprthrowaway wrote: post #503

eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

I've browsed this site for years now, and I do see this pattern in many posts that critique China. A large number of replies turn the conversation towards how the West is equally bad or worse. Another set of replies talks about how China may inevitably come out ahead. You can check yourself by Googling 10 HN threads that critique China, versus say, Japan or Poland. Is China running some indirect social public relatio…

[deleted]

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#507

Post by foodislove » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:06 AM UTC

cnprthrowaway wrote: post #503

eddieplan9 wrote: post #293

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…

I've browsed this site for years now, and I do see this pattern in many posts that critique China. A large number of replies turn the conversation towards how the West is equally bad or worse. Another set of replies talks about how China may inevitably come out ahead. You can check yourself by Googling 10 HN threads that critique China, versus say, Japan or Poland. Is China running some indirect social public relatio…

The fact that you think you need to create a throwaway account speaks to how much the climate has changed for us. There is a real fear considering how totalitarian and intrusive the government has become, that they will target anyone who disagrees even on a benign forum like this.

I'm sure one of the many pro-china robots will cite something liek "THE NSA IS JUST AS BAD" but the reality is China is 1000000 times worse.

Just mention how Taiwan is in reality an independent country and they go full retard.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#508

Post by mirimir » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:24 AM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #495

mirimir wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why we're arguing. China clearly is different from the West. And so are other Asian nations. Not as different as China is, however. Maybe more or less proportionally vs relative cultural influence from China and the West.

I disagree with the idea that it "isn't useful to lump in China with Asia overall" because, in fact, there is a lot of commonality between Chinese culture and other Asian cultures.

Well, there are lumpers and splitters, and I tend to be a splitter.

But anyway, should one judge China based on Western principles and values. If so, what would be the basis for that?

And if not, should one judge China based on principles and values of ? I don't see the basis for that, either.

However, it is of course valid for Chinese to judge their own country, based on whatever principles and values they might hold. And to work for change. But that's a very different thing from random Westerners judging China.

Personally, I can't imagine living in China. I have a hard enough time tolerating the US. But it's for sure better than where I came from. Although, I must admit, far from what I had imagined. But so it goes.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#509

Post by Gatsky » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:24 AM UTC

I hope our era will be remembered for something other than the abject failure of liberal democracy. The US and Europe are struggling/sabotaging themselves, while Russia and China just consolidate their power. Africa keeps burning. India will take the Sino-Russian path no doubt.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#510

Post by cnprthrowaway » Sat, Mar 17, 2018, 6:29 AM UTC

foodislove wrote: post #507

cnprthrowaway wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've browsed this site for years now, and I do see this pattern in many posts that critique China. A large number of replies turn the conversation towards how the West is equally bad or worse. Another set of replies talks about how China may inevitably come out ahead. You can check yourself by Googling 10 HN threads that critique China, versus say, Japan or Poland. Is China running some indirect social public relatio…

The fact that you think you need to create a throwaway account speaks to how much the climate has changed for us. There is a real fear considering how totalitarian and intrusive the government has become, that they will target anyone who disagrees even on a benign forum like this. I'm sure one of the many pro-china robots will cite something liek "THE NSA IS JUST AS BAD" but the reality is China is 1000000 times wors…

Absolutely. Many years ago, a family friend hosted a blog on his home server that had an anti-CPC article. A few weeks after the publication of that article, he found his router flashed and the blog content defaced.

I'm a normal person with a normal life, hence the throwaway to reduce even the small chance of getting hit back, something that China seems to like to do (not coincidentally the exact topic of the original link).

I'm not into conspiracy theories, but we know what Russia has likely already done on social media. China is just as clever and resourceful, if not more, and they want to save face. This makes indirect social media influence a temptation that is difficult for the CPC to resist at best.