At what point does the ruling party in China finally overstep its bounds and incite a full-fledged violent revolution?
China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
431–440 of 602 posts
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#432Earlier quoted context omitted.
Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. Thank goodness. However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. The difference is primarily that in the west, the people who would do this, don't yet have 100% coverage over society.
>However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. This is exactly the kind of false equivalency the parent is talking about.
I'd argue that's not entirely true. Consider, for example, the fact that corporate prisons exist in America. I would say there is a difference in governance, but I hesitate to speculate about cultural differences.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#433I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel docu…
For what it's worth I doubt many of those commented have ever lived (or even visited) China. It's easy to create a false equivalency when you have no real experience of the situation. This is a different situation, and it's sadly Orwellian.
I think this is an important point.
I had a coworker who grew up in Romania under Ceausescu and the stories he told! He talked about neighbors just disappearing one day and someone new living in the home. People didn't bat an eye since if you started asking questions, you might be next.
He mentioned how there was an election for president and it was a write in ballot. Someone wrote "Mickey Mouse". Despite voting in a booth in private, they figured out who he was and he had to report for "reeducation" every weekend. This involved sitting in the police station watching propaganda all day Saturday and Sunday.
I don't think people in the West can even fathom what it's like to live under an authoritarian system like that.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#434To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'
I would like to see if there exist any societal examples of self-regulation in social status, beyond rehabilitation and re-education centers.
A healthy human body releases sweat as one form of regulating body temperature. If it fails to do this, you can reason that the person is unhealthy or has an illness. A cause of a systemic failure. If such feedback loops exist in a society that cause the worst in reputation to fall in even deeper, then there is also a systemic failure here. It promotes the idea that anything broken should just be discarded rather than fixed. It is a very passive way to run a society.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#435Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not really true. Progress and upward economic development increase the faith of the public and the Communist Party rank-and-file in the Communist Party leadership. The Communist Party leadership has a strong incentive to promote growth.
> the Communist Party leadership has a strong incentive to promote growth But Xi Jinping does not.
Oh, on the contrary. His legitimacy is directly related to his ability to have stability, and that stability comes from employment. When you are a state-run economy, you make sure everyone is employed, even if it's not profitable, because that's how you keep them from going all Tienamen Square on the leadership. So they spend a lot, and they loan a ton, to prop up their growth numbers. The CCP subsidizes growth by dumping goods in several markets and looking the other way at companies stealing intellectual property. They are willing to loan money at such low rates (one belt one road) because they see more of a return usually then what they normally do with money.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#436Wow. Communism at it's best.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#437Earlier quoted context omitted.
US exceeding a billion people? All countries except some in Africa are on a population decline long term. https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/2c9342e9aa17d2237eade9... https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-... https://vimeo.com/79878808
It'd be great if these optimistic projections are what happens, but today's american culture and economy is still very growth centric - I don't see it happening.
Toys R Us just said yesterday that one of the major causes of their bankruptcy was a decline in birth rates.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#438China is doing this explicitly, but the West has been doing this implicitly for a while. Doxxing people with the "wrong" opinion and emailing their employers, friends, etc. I pretty regularly see if on Facebook where someone says something and their post or a screenshot of their post is shared hundreds of thousands of times with test that says "make this person famous". To be clear people should be called out for big…
Woah, there's a difference between an "internet lynch mob" doing it and the state doing it!
there is a difference, but it's not black and white.
sure, state is much more powerful. however, state plays by the rules, and if the rules (aka laws) are changed, state will leave you alone. And laws could be changed.
good luck trying to stop the mob, though.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#439Earlier quoted context omitted.
So why are the analogies others have made not valid? (although I haven't found anyone saying it's "essentially the same thing")
It's pure whataboutism that only serves to totally distract attention away from this newly-designed Chinese policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism > Whataboutism (also known as whataboutery) is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument, which is particularly associated…
I don't think this applies here, because in this case the two events are directly related. Poster's aren't bringing up random unrelated problems with the U.S., they're bringing up similar systems already in place in the U.S. that HN commentators aren't up in arms about.
So you either need to do what I asked, which is explain why the two aren't comparable, or admit that the pushback against these policies is because they're new, foreign, or framed differently than their American counterparts.
Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains
#440Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. But I worry the West will be watching this closely to see how they might implement something similar.
How could they? Americans are too paranoid to allow an ID card, much less a centrally tracked loyalty-points number to use at party-owned shopping, transit, utility, housing....
I'm worried that paranoia is a thing of the past. I somewhat concerned that a (free) national ID scheme will be the result of the "Voter ID" push from the GOP in recent years.