China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#201

Post by sgift » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:43 PM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #168

jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

(edit: oy, this is a controversial comment? karma score is swinging wildly. I don't mean to suggest that China's social credit system is a good idea or that it has an equivalent in the USA. It's just worth pointing out that China's own characterization of the system is pretty similar to how things work in the US...) From the article: > People who would be put on the restricted lists included those found to have commi…

> The US will ban you from flying if you are politically controversial [1]

The provided source doesn't support this claim. The only part which could even remotely be constructed as support for this claim would be 3 and the anecdata there include "He suspects" and "He thinks" - on the other, that you can end on such a list without knowing the reason (and often without recourse afair) is a real problem, but that's not what you claimed.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#202

Post by AboutTheWhisles » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:43 PM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #168

jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

(edit: oy, this is a controversial comment? karma score is swinging wildly. I don't mean to suggest that China's social credit system is a good idea or that it has an equivalent in the USA. It's just worth pointing out that China's own characterization of the system is pretty similar to how things work in the US...) From the article: > People who would be put on the restricted lists included those found to have commi…

If you break traffic laws too many times you aren't allowed to drive, but you aren't banned from riding in a car.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#203

Post by adventured » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

SubiculumCode wrote: post #113

behindmyscreen wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guiding principle however appears to be "Once untrustworthy, always forbidden". That is an issue.

That seems like what happens once you have a felony in U.S. I mean that a felony removes your right to vote, makes employment much more difficult.

How does whataboutism about bad US policy improve the nature or standing of China's bad policy?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#204

Post by meatbundragon » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #176

jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

The country you're countering about, China, executes people in stadiums before cheering crowds instead of going the felony route when it comes to drug policy. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/thousands-chin... Meanwhile, back in the US, we've actually begun to recognize our mistake as a culture. Thus eight states have legalized marijuana, and another dozen will go that way soon. Decriminalization of drug…

First sentence of the Stadium article:

> A court in China has sentenced 10 people to death, mostly for drug-related crimes, in front of thousands of onlookers before taking them away for execution.

Did you mean sentencing in instead of executing? Based on the article you linked, the executions seem to have occurred elsewhere.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#205

Post by alexbeloi » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

nkrisc wrote: post #164

ams6110 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. This is the marketplace at work. It's not a government-imposed ban on access to public services.

What's the difference if the effect is the same?

It's the same as the difference between societal discrimination and government legislated discrimination. Both terrible, the latter seems more so.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#206

Post by fspeech » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:45 PM UTC

thathappened wrote: post #182

fspeech wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the original NDRC documents being reported here: http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html for air travel http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879654.html for train travel and Chinese news summary: http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/201803/16/t20180316_28505546... Use Google translate to check if this is being misreported. In China you are "bad credit" if you refuse to pay despite a court…

So this is really just like communal imprisonment vs jail in other societies

Air travel has been considered luxury until recently and may still be for most. China has a very developed passenger train network and road network. The train ban for non-safety-related cases only bans travelling in first class/sleeper cars and G trains (high speed trains). You can still travel in regular train cars. So the spirit is more like: if you refuse to pay or claim you can't afford to pay, you shouldn't be able to travel with too much comfort.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#207

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:46 PM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #183

heedlessly2 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because if black people get accused of a crime, most people believe they actually committed it. If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt

> If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt Which would make sense, no? They're playing the odds. It's exceedingly rare for any upper-middle class woman to commit a crime. So to be surprised by that is understandable. Take color and class out of it, you need only compare "man accused of crime" vs "woman acc…

> Which would make sense, no? They're playing the odds. It's exceedingly rare for any upper-middle class woman to commit a crime.

Our “knowledge” of who commitd crimes is distorted by societal biases that influence the ascription of blame; there is no set of crime statistics that is immune from that.

So, when you justify those biases on the bases of the understanding that they distort, you make a circular argument, where the bias is its own justification.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#208

Post by jdietrich » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:46 PM UTC

DamnYuppie wrote: post #147

jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

Virginia and New Jersey have felony larceny thresholds of $200; Massachusetts draws the line at $250. Arizona, Oklahoma and Tennessee all class possession of half an ounce of marijuana as a felony. Several states make possession of any amount within proximity of a school, church or park a felony. There are countless examples of misdemeanour possession being trumped-up to felony possession with intent based on very flimsy grounds.

This is all nitpicky and arbitrary, which is largely my point. The line between misdemeanour and felony is thin, but the consequences of crossing it are severe. In one state, you might get a $50 fine; in the next, you might be barred from voting or lose your green card.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#209

Post by moufestaphio » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:46 PM UTC

woolvalley wrote: post #60

pm90 wrote: post #9

The thing that worries me most about the autocracy in China is that all of these Orwellian measures would actually work and then would be pointed out as an example to abandon our civil liberties in favor of a system that may be big brotherly but at least "your kids will always be safe, never be close to any bad person" (By We I'm referring to Democracies). It may also be a uniquely Chinese thing too though. China has…

You can also bring up japan as a counter-example. It's even safer and cleaner & it's still a democracy!

Japan has a pretty long history of autocratic rulership..

And has only really had once party in power throughout the history of its democracy (like 3 years or so without): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Japa...

Not sure its the best counter example

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#210

Post by oxymoran » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:46 PM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #129

mozumder wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much crap do you actually buy per day that buying stuff needs time management? I mean, don't people normally just buy what they need once a month or so? And, do you actually need a review for basic groceries that you buy once a week? Also actual high-end products, like fashion, aren't available on Amazon anyways, while the real cheap stuff you'd get from Ali Express. I will never understand Amazon. I use it maybe…

Wheel bearing grease, a Ninja food chopper, EZ jar opener, a vacuum, steel baoding balls, books, steamer rack, Bandai Tamashi Nations Darth Vader, air purifier, desoldering iron... these are just a few of my recent purchases this month. Doesn’t even include movie and show rentals.

Exactly. Amazon is perfect for those sorts of things. You would have had to have gone to at least 3 stores to find all of that stuff, if you could have found it at all. I am remodeling my house and it’s fantastic for finding things I didn’t even know existed.