China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#191

Post by jandrese » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

crispyporkbites wrote: post #158

jandrese wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the first thing I thought of as well. Once thing I kind of liked about that episode is that it was backwards from a normal Black Mirror episode. Normally they try to make the technology look fun and useful at first before they do the flip and make it horrible and dehumanizing. This episode started out like the end of a normal episode and ended with the main character doing a white girl rap battle with some ra…

What’s a white girl rap battle? I don’t remember anything like that

When she's thrown in the glass jail cell and starts hurling insults across the walkway at the random dude (and him back) rap battle style. It's the first (and only) time in the entire episode where she seems like she's actually having fun. And this is a girl who can sell the "I'm not having fun" while blitzing through the woods on a quadbike.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#192

Post by johan_larson » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

bkohlmann wrote: post #123

johan_larson wrote: post #55

To be fair we ban people with felony convictions from huge swathes of jobs, formally or informally, even if the crime happened decades ago. Also, good luck finding a place to live legally if you've been convicted of a sex crime.

We ban them after due process procedures are complete - which often involves knowing your accused crime and accuser, lengthy evidence gathering, and impartial trials. As I understand the Chinese social capital system, there is no due process, you may not even know if you've been cited for anything until the punishment comes, and violations are identified without appeal.

More than 90% of criminal convictions are the result of pleas, not trials. Few people can come up with the sort of money needed to mount a serious defense to a criminal charge. And in some cases the state can take your money up front, so you definitely don't have the resources to mount a defense.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#193

Post by smsm42 » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #172

olfactory wrote: post #75

This sounds horrible, but the "Real Name" movement for online services (such as Facebook) is an equally insidious American version. When a "real name" service becomes a financial services company, we have a merging of social metadata and a conventional credit score. It does not start out as a dystopian vision. Why should Facebook charge advertisers money to show ads to people with a 400 credit score? The yield of man…

> This sounds horrible, but the "Real Name" movement for online services (such as Facebook) is an equally insidious American version. Add to that Facebook’s blocking you from access to your account unless you upload a photo that clearly shows your whole face, which has been reported in recent months. Real name + financial services + facial recognition + is even worse.

I don't have my face on my FB profile, and nobody blocked me.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#194

Post by DoreenMichele » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #183

heedlessly2 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because if black people get accused of a crime, most people believe they actually committed it. If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt

> If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt Which would make sense, no? They're playing the odds. It's exceedingly rare for any upper-middle class woman to commit a crime. So to be surprised by that is understandable. Take color and class out of it, you need only compare "man accused of crime" vs "woman acc…

No. That's pure prejudice. There are lots of upper class criminals. Maybe you have heard of Elizabeth Holmes, the blonde woman in charge of Theranos? Major fraud case.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#195

Post by vondur » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #162

DamnYuppie wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

What about 3 strikes in many States?

Originally, the 3 strikes laws were to be used only against violent felonies. I'm not sure how they were able to include non violent offenses to the list.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#196

Post by macrael » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #176

jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

The country you're countering about, China, executes people in stadiums before cheering crowds instead of going the felony route when it comes to drug policy. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/thousands-chin... Meanwhile, back in the US, we've actually begun to recognize our mistake as a culture. Thus eight states have legalized marijuana, and another dozen will go that way soon. Decriminalization of drug…

From the first link, China sentenced 10 people in front of a crowd but they were executed out of sight. Not that this fully detracts from your point but I appreciate the clarity.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#197

Post by adventured » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

DamnYuppie wrote: post #153

echevil wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the American credit score more like “once untrustworthy, always restricted”? Most the restrictions announced by China are removed automatically in just one year.

No it isn't. While it can inconvenience you for a few years you can get it back up by simply paying your bills on time and paying down debts. Now that being the case I still don't like credit scores. You can work years, have lots of savings, pay all your bills on time, pay off cars and mortgages and have a rocking credit score. The if one medical vendor sends your $90 bill to the wrong address, you never see it, then…

The US credit scoring system has begun aggressively devaluing medical claims against your credit:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/07/11/5365018...

https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/medical-debt-and...

You can also easily dispute that $90 bill, and easily get it removed from your record. You'll find there's almost zero chance they're going to tangle with you over $90.

If it's a $5,000 medical bill, then they will fight you over that dispute claim.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#198

Post by AboutTheWhisles » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

Are we sure this is dystopian enough? I love the idea of taking someone who might be marginalized and marginalizing them even further, but how can we make sure it is passed down through the generations to their family?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#199

Post by DamnYuppie » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

hungryhobo wrote: post #170

DamnYuppie wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. While it can inconvenience you for a few years you can get it back up by simply paying your bills on time and paying down debts. Now that being the case I still don't like credit scores. You can work years, have lots of savings, pay all your bills on time, pay off cars and mortgages and have a rocking credit score. The if one medical vendor sends your $90 bill to the wrong address, you never see it, then…

so it's the same then.

I am not sure I follow this. I have gotten back up by simply doing the things I was doing before.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#200

Post by Reedx » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #194

Reedx wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt Which would make sense, no? They're playing the odds. It's exceedingly rare for any upper-middle class woman to commit a crime. So to be surprised by that is understandable. Take color and class out of it, you need only compare "man accused of crime" vs "woman acc…

No. That's pure prejudice. There are lots of upper class criminals. Maybe you have heard of Elizabeth Holmes, the blonde woman in charge of Theranos? Major fraud case.

Ever heard of Aileen Wuornos? Major serial killer case.

Aileen and Elizabeth are outliers. It makes sense to be surprised by it.

If there's a woman and a man and someone asks you to guess the criminal, which one are you going to choose? Flipping a coin would not be a wise strategy.