China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains • Hacker News Board

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#171

Post by mikeash » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

DamnYuppie wrote: post #147

jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

In Virginia, felony larceny starts at $200, easily within coat range. I once had jury duty and was faced with the prospect of sentencing the defendant to up to 20 years in prison for the crime of receiving stolen goods valued at least $200. I got rejected from the jury, probably because I said I couldn’t possibly consider 20 years in prison for that.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#172

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

olfactory wrote: post #75

This sounds horrible, but the "Real Name" movement for online services (such as Facebook) is an equally insidious American version. When a "real name" service becomes a financial services company, we have a merging of social metadata and a conventional credit score. It does not start out as a dystopian vision. Why should Facebook charge advertisers money to show ads to people with a 400 credit score? The yield of man…

> This sounds horrible, but the "Real Name" movement for online services (such as Facebook) is an equally insidious American version.

Add to that Facebook’s blocking you from access to your account unless you upload a photo that clearly shows your whole face, which has been reported in recent months. Real name + financial services + facial recognition + is even worse.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#173

Post by thathappened » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #162

DamnYuppie wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

What about 3 strikes in many States?

Sympathy for habitual criminals?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#174

Post by heedlessly2 » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

will_brown wrote: post #148

coliveira wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to black people convicted of minor crimes in the USA?

Why highlight “black people”? Do white people convicted of crimes not carry a stigma? Hispanics? Notwithstanding the qualifier, I think the difference between criminal records and social credit is the system itself. While flawed at least the (US) court system provide certain safeguards: due process, equal protection, right to remain silent, right to confront accusers, right to a lawyer even if you can’t afford one, e…

because if black people get accused of a crime, most people believe they actually committed it.

If an upper-middle class blonde hair, blue eyed woman gets accused of a crime, a higher degree of people would at least give her the benefit of the doubt

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#175

Post by aero142 » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

These problems also exist with debt and I think similar solutions are also possible. Muslim law banned interest. Jewish custom create Jubilee where debt was forgiven every seven years. America has a fairly forgiving bankruptcy system. I think the world of personal data scores is coming whether we like it or not, the only question is how is society going to codify it into law. Privacy laws may also apply to this where you are only allowed to keep these kinds of records for a few years and then they have to be expunged. At the government level, maybe your childhood mistakes phase out over time by law.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#176

Post by adventured » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #141

awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

The country you're countering about, China, executes people in stadiums before cheering crowds instead of going the felony route when it comes to drug policy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/thousands-chin...

Meanwhile, back in the US, we've actually begun to recognize our mistake as a culture. Thus eight states have legalized marijuana, and another dozen will go that way soon. Decriminalization of drug offenses is a common point of discussion in every state. Nearly every state that puts pot legalization on the ballot sees it go through. We've begun recognizing the mistake of how we fail to treat addicts.

Over a decade ago the US recognized the huge mistake of mass incarceration, as such the US prison population has peaked and has begun to decline, with both sides of the political aisle now openly discussing how to correct that broken system.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/grover-norquist/republicans-a...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/12/prison...

http://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/354288-we-must-p...

And there's China, going the other direction full speed.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#177

Post by bilbo0s » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #162

DamnYuppie wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

What about 3 strikes in many States?

I understand your point. But I think the problem actually arises long before strike number three. In most cases, it's ONE strike and you're out as far as "bad social credit score" goes. It's just going to be VERY difficult for you to secure employment, or even decent housing, with that conviction on your record.

Just one of the hard realities of the legal system.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#178

Post by lazerpants » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

DamnYuppie wrote: post #153

echevil wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the American credit score more like “once untrustworthy, always restricted”? Most the restrictions announced by China are removed automatically in just one year.

No it isn't. While it can inconvenience you for a few years you can get it back up by simply paying your bills on time and paying down debts. Now that being the case I still don't like credit scores. You can work years, have lots of savings, pay all your bills on time, pay off cars and mortgages and have a rocking credit score. The if one medical vendor sends your $90 bill to the wrong address, you never see it, then…

Interesting. I had the same experience (doctor->collections; trivial amount of money) and it didn't impact my score at all. In fact, I laughed at the collections agent and told her they would never see a penny from me, as it hasn't impacted my score. That was several months ago and still no change in my score and I certainly haven't paid them.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#179

Post by DamnYuppie » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #162

DamnYuppie wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

What about 3 strikes in many States?

I am not sure I follow your question as it is very open ended. Are you asking if I am in favor of incarcerating criminals who continually commit violent felonies?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#180

Post by echevil » Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 6:37 PM UTC

If the author of this article has read the original announcement from either Chinese government or various sources from China, they'll know the so called "people with bad social credit" that'll get these restrictions is defined very clearly, and yet it mentioned only a tiny bit of it in very misleading way. Many of the actions described in the definition would put you in jail in US. Whether they're intentionally misleading people is anybody's guess.

There are many paragraphs clarifying the definition either here: http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html

Or here: http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/201803/16/t20180316_28505546...

There is also clearly defined way to lift the restrictions as defined in the NDRC announcement. Most of the restrictions are removed automatically in one year. Certainly not "once untrustworthy, always restricted"