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China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

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Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#161

Post by ams6110 »

jdietrich wrote: post #141
awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

> Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing.

This is the marketplace at work. It's not a government-imposed ban on access to public services.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#162

Post by jamesblonde »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #147
jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

Stealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony

What about 3 strikes in many States?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#163

Post by dwighttk »

matte_black wrote: post #71
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you manage before Amazon was a thing?

It was hell. To buy one item I would have to go to a physical store and search through a bunch of crappy options with little to no information about which was better. It could easily take an hour if I didn’t rush or traffic sucked. Now, I could just wake up in the morning and get the same thing done in 5 minutes AND select a product I feel confident about based on reviews. Instead of wasting an hour of my life I coul…

>search through a bunch of crappy options with little to no information about which was better.

weird, that's how I'd describe about 60% of my time on Amazon... Better, sometimes.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#164

Post by nkrisc »

ams6110 wrote: post #161
jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

> Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. This is the marketplace at work. It's not a government-imposed ban on access to public services.

What's the difference if the effect is the same?

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#165

Post by sgift »

ams6110 wrote: post #161
jdietrich wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

> Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. This is the marketplace at work. It's not a government-imposed ban on access to public services.

The only way the marketplace can do this is with the support of the government. The government provides felony records after all.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#166

Post by cdmckay »

will_brown wrote: post #148
coliveira wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to black people convicted of minor crimes in the USA?

Why highlight “black people”? Do white people convicted of crimes not carry a stigma? Hispanics? Notwithstanding the qualifier, I think the difference between criminal records and social credit is the system itself. While flawed at least the (US) court system provide certain safeguards: due process, equal protection, right to remain silent, right to confront accusers, right to a lawyer even if you can’t afford one, e…

Because people treat black and Hispanic people with criminal records more harshly than white people.

From: https://csgjusticecenter.org/reentry/posts/researchers-exami...

> Key findings include:

> * Both black and Hispanic men were less likely to receive a positive response from employers—including a call back or email for an interview or a job offer—compared with white men.

> * Men with criminal records were more likely than women with criminal records to receive a negative response from employers.

> * White men with a criminal record had more positive responses than black men with no criminal record.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#168

Post by throwawayjava »

jdietrich wrote: post #141
awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

Consider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.

(edit: oy, this is a controversial comment? karma score is swinging wildly. I don't mean to suggest that China's social credit system is a good idea or that it has an equivalent in the USA. It's just worth pointing out that China's own characterization of the system is pretty similar to how things work in the US...)

From the article:

> People who would be put on the restricted lists included those found to have committed acts like spreading false information about terrorism and causing trouble on flights, as well as those who used expired tickets or smoked on trains, according to two statements issued on the National Development and Reform Commission’s website on Friday.

The US may ban you from flying if you are politically controversial [1]+, get kicked off a flight [2, edit: 4], or sneak onto planes without a ticket [3].

Likewise, people who trespass on public transit are often barred from its use. And of course people who break traffic laws are (eventually) kicked off the roads.

I won't comment on whether the Chinese government's characterization of its laws is accurate or not (I don't speak any relevant language and don't know much about the culture, so all I have to go off of is western media). But at least according to the Chinese government, these rules are mostly in-line with how things often work in the US.

[1] https://theintercept.com/document/2014/07/23/march-2013-watc... (edit: changed from http://mentalfloss.com/article/68073/8-ways-you-can-end-no-f...)

[2] https://thepointsguy.com/2017/07/getting-banned-from-an-airl...

[3] e.g., http://wqad.com/2018/02/21/illinois-stowaway-woman-pleads-no...

[4] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39919229/ns/travel-news/t/can-bad-...

+ The "predictive assessments" (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/10/us-no-fly-li...) used for putting people on the no-fly list are not very transparent and, IMO, reminiscent of a social credit system. It's extremely hard to imagine such a system that doesn't harshly penalize certain constitutionally protected speech (e.g., about Islam and US foreign policy in the ME).

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#169

Post by lovich »

will_brown wrote: post #148
coliveira wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to black people convicted of minor crimes in the USA?

Why highlight “black people”? Do white people convicted of crimes not carry a stigma? Hispanics? Notwithstanding the qualifier, I think the difference between criminal records and social credit is the system itself. While flawed at least the (US) court system provide certain safeguards: due process, equal protection, right to remain silent, right to confront accusers, right to a lawyer even if you can’t afford one, e…

Even if we safeguards worked 100% perfectly do they matter if we craft laws that convict a certain group of people?

I can't remember the quote exactly, but there's one about the law, in all it's equality, prevents the poor and rich alike from sleeping outside or begging for food.

I don't really see a practical difference between the two systems

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#170

Post by hungryhobo »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #153
echevil wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the American credit score more like “once untrustworthy, always restricted”? Most the restrictions announced by China are removed automatically in just one year.

No it isn't. While it can inconvenience you for a few years you can get it back up by simply paying your bills on time and paying down debts. Now that being the case I still don't like credit scores. You can work years, have lots of savings, pay all your bills on time, pay off cars and mortgages and have a rocking credit score. The if one medical vendor sends your $90 bill to the wrong address, you never see it, then…

so it's the same then.
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