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Adrian Lamo has died

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Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#111

Post by patorjk »

VonGuard wrote: post #22

So, I'm gonna lay it out here as I am having a bad day and don't feel like censoring myself. I'd known Adrian since 1998. He came to 2600 meetings in SF and was a fixture there. In that time, he generally didn't make any friends. While he was gay, he was also stalking a lady at the meetings, and being super creepy about it. Eventually, he left SF and was homeless. He got in trouble for hacking the NYT and making hims…

If you don't mind, I have a question about Adrian that I've wondered about for a while. I first came across his name when I was researching the author of an old AOL hacking program known as Fate X. It was pretty popular on AOL at the time and was written by "Magus". In interviews around 2010, Adrian claimed he went by the handle Magus on AOL, and many people I talked to pointed to him when I was trying to track down the author. However, I later discovered the app was written by someone else. Did Adrian claim to have written Fate X? And did he ever go into detail about his AOL days? It may just be a coincidence that he used the same handle, but I always found this to be a little strange.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#112

Post by pbhjpbhj »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #97
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, OK and rewriting history is a tactic favoured by fascists. Now, where did that get us, nowhere. There was no person of that public identity in existence at the time, doesn't that make it impossible for such a person to have done something. Suppose Chelsea Manning were now to revert to calling himself Bradley (a situation not without precedent), or choose a further name - why should that change how we report factu…

> Um, OK and rewriting history is a tactic favoured by fascists. We're not rewriting history. Allowing a transgendered person to choose a new name doesn't change the basic facts about what happened. It's just an act of compassion towards someone who would otherwise be suffering from feelings neither you nor I personally experience, but are well documented by scientists. > Shouldn't it be "Bradley Manning (now called…

You can't always raise objective facts and remain polite. I disagree.

Someone changing their name and identifying as the opposite sex after being arrested (the next day I think?) in a major political scandal makes that pertinent to the history of the situation. Hiding that by pretending the person always was identified as they currently are hides facts about the situation -- are they pertinent, maybe not to the primary issue, but the contemporaneous nature suggests something of interest (in social history if nothing else).

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#113

Post by ddingus »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #80
CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a person's name from before they come out as transgender is called deadnaming and is a tactic favored among abusive people. The polite thing to do, regardless of personal politics, is to simply reassociate the person with the name Chelsea Manning and move on with your life.

Um, OK and rewriting history is a tactic favoured by fascists. Now, where did that get us, nowhere. There was no person of that public identity in existence at the time, doesn't that make it impossible for such a person to have done something. Suppose Chelsea Manning were now to revert to calling himself Bradley (a situation not without precedent), or choose a further name - why should that change how we report factu…

You get to do that. Others get to do what they are doing too.

It's not about that. I'm not gonna tell you what to do, but I will absolutely tell you something about what it means.

Maybe you don't know.

Frankly, your preferences are toxic. The toxicity is rooted in lack of consideration for others.

Nobody is objective. Even you.

And that lack of consideration actually undermines your stated goal of objectivity. It's not really viable to attempt objectivity without actually considering others and the social dynamics in play.

Those carry a lot of implications for everyone involved, even you.

Now, trans people simply are the gender they self identify as. Manning didn't switch.

What she did was actualize herself better, and that means being able to present as who she is better. Would you have others live lies so you, personally feel better about who they are?

I wouldn't, and for one reason: What if it were me stuck with a bad deal like she got?

What is that bad deal?

Rather than always parsing every move, interaction, expression for gender norm compliance, essentially living a lie, she now simply is and does as any of us do. Who wants to live an act, facade like that?

Nobody, and that is a basic human truth. Nobody. It's hell.

Your attempt to connect things back to an identity that is a more or less a lie, a forced construct, does nothing but reinforce the lies and severe inhibition she just escaped from.

Further, by doing that, you also inhibit acceptance and amplify severe and personal pain and for what?

I will leave that for you to answer, save to say it's self serving and this world isn't just about you.

Consideration due is consideration given. You aren't giving any, leaving yourself due very little, which should explain the frank and blunt nature of my comment, which I really should not have to write.

Maybe it helps. Hope so. The world will be just a bit better, and that is my intent here.

Give a little, and 'ye shall receive.

Oh, and no response required or expected. I don't care about that. No need. Just think, and then consider acting on the product of those thoughts.

Cheers.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#114

Post by rimunroe »

dredmorbius wrote: post #108
rimunroe wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a personal note, a year or two before that happened Adrian helped my family recover our AOL/AIM accounts after they were compromised. Someone got control of the master account for all my family's AOL accounts, which we created back in ~1995. Because we hadn't been paying customers for over a decade, AOL was unresponsive to support requests. One of my acquaintances knew Adrian though, and got him in touch with me a…

FWIW the response for paying AOL customers (former) was little better.

That's the impression I got from him :/

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#115

Post by daxorid »

phusion wrote: post #99
notthemessiah wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say that Daniel Ellsberg shouldn't have "snitched" to the public on the assessment that the Vietnam War was unwinnable? You seem to conflate "good" with "authority" here.

Seriously, I'm really surprised at some of the comments here. Some hackers have always been suits though, so I shouldn't be surprised.

Definitely shouldn't be surprised, and it's not just the suits.

It seems that the election of Trump, in particular, has turned half of the infosec community into rabid fans of the CIA/FBI/NSA. It's really quite sickening.

One of my personal favorite public conversions has been the grugq. In 3-4 years he's gone from selling bugs (worldwide), and supporting hackers (worldwide), to a rabid Russiaphobe who uncritically accepts whatever unsubstantiated claims GCHQ and NSA make, and refuses to sell bugs to anyone but FVEY.

Summer camp probably won't be very much fun this year.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#116

Post by dang »

_wmd wrote: post #98
tptacek wrote: post #90

Reminder: Lamo is a public figure but also a real person with real relationships with people who will read this thread. You are all commenting on a Facebook thread written by Lamo's dad about the death of his son.

Thoroughly agreed. Would love to see the mods taking a much more active role in this thread

Users have flagged the submission and some of the less humane comments in the thread. That's probably the right outcome, given that there's no way to stop the discussion from being about the events of 8 years ago, but probably no good discussion about them to be had in this context.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#117

Post by pbhjpbhj »

CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #109
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh come come, we all know you intended the implication.

"This is something that bad people do" isn't an accusation of being bad, regardless of how much it offends you. People replicate the behaviors of terrible people either by accident or by mimicry all the time. My aim is to inform, not to condemn.

You're strictly right, of course. It amused me, which is why I parodied it in my response -- but whilst it is not a direct accusation everyone using such a turn of phrase in straight prose intends to create a loose identification between their subject and those "bad people" whilst leaving open the door to make such claims as you are now.

Your objection above lacks credence.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#118

Post by detaro »

notthemessiah wrote: post #48
praneshp wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kids, don't be a snitch. No good group of people has that rule. I've seen/heard about that rule so far from the mafia, drug dealers, and bad cops.

Would you say that Daniel Ellsberg shouldn't have "snitched" to the public on the assessment that the Vietnam War was unwinnable? You seem to conflate "good" with "authority" here.

It kind of sounds like you read the parents statement backwards?

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#119

Post by free2beme66 »

I know that there has been controversy dealing with Adrian Lamo for a long, long time, however; my sister was married to him for a short time and I know he had many mental health issues and demons that he's been dealing with his entire life. I know she loved him very much at one point and time and she is sad today because she knows how hard his life was dealing with his issues. I feel terrible for his parents, family, and friends. This is not the time to talk badly about him.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#120

Post by danso »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #112
CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Um, OK and rewriting history is a tactic favoured by fascists. We're not rewriting history. Allowing a transgendered person to choose a new name doesn't change the basic facts about what happened. It's just an act of compassion towards someone who would otherwise be suffering from feelings neither you nor I personally experience, but are well documented by scientists. > Shouldn't it be "Bradley Manning (now called…

You can't always raise objective facts and remain polite. I disagree. Someone changing their name and identifying as the opposite sex after being arrested (the next day I think?) in a major political scandal makes that pertinent to the history of the situation. Hiding that by pretending the person always was identified as they currently are hides facts about the situation -- are they pertinent, maybe not to the prima…

FWIW, Lamo himself consistently uses Chelsea/her/she when writing about the past:

https://medium.com/@lamo/a-statement-on-the-commutation-of-w...

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