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Adrian Lamo has died

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Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#81

Post by fruzz »

kragen wrote: post #5

I'm conflicted about this news. On one hand, he was one of us, and he shared his knowledge. On the other hand, he was a traitor, and he betrayed the trust of a true hero in order to put more unaccountable government power in the hands of people like Donald Trump. Who would have expected that Adrian Lamo would outlive Chelsea Manning? Did he commit suicide — as she nearly did?

I don't know if he had a choice.

He has been incarcerated. He might have faced further incarceration by not disclosing. He was also hardly alone in his view.

Chelsea, meanwhile, knew that what she was doing had risks. She ended up having to face the consequences of her actions.

I'm glad she's released. But ultimately she is responsible for her actions and the outcome of her actions.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#82

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

amyjess wrote: post #45
rwmj wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Traitor" is a pretty powerful word. A more realistic way to look at it is that someone—using a persistent method of communication—told him that they had committed a very serious crime¹, and he then had to choose between covering it up or going to the police. Covering it up or ignoring it could have meant he was an accessory. ¹ Whether it should be a serious crime or not is irrelevant here.

And to be honest I'd rather he snitch than contribute to a culture of cronyism that's all too prevalent in the world. Like, discovering that a friend of yours committed a serious crime and then keeping it a secret is the very definition of corruption . If we, as a society, are going to move past corruption and cronyism, then we have to accept this kind of snitching, because it's the only way to defeat corruption. For…

Yeah, best way to end corruption certainly is to help those in power keep their secrets by snitching on those who tell the world, that makes sense! After all, those in power have said it's a crime to challenge their power!

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#84

Post by auntienomen »

andrepd wrote: post #13
cypherg wrote: post #11

This guy was seriously mentally troubled, and that's too bad. Chelsea Manning (Bradley/Bradass at the time) confieded in Adrian, Adrian snitched, and the rest is history. He did what he thought was right, but the consequences were absolutely disastrous. Kids, don't be a snitch.

>Kids, don't be a snitch. Simplistic. Kids, please be a snitch sometimes, like Manning.

Simplistic again. Most of Manning's snitching didn't help anyone but the Taliban.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#85

Post by checkyoursudo »

CydeWeys wrote: post #44
patrickaljord wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, he was a traitor, and he betrayed the trust of a true hero I used to agree with this but honestly, the second Manning contacted him, he was complicit with the crime being committed and would have been sent to the same horrible hole Manning was sent to. It was irresponsible of Manning to put Lamo in this situation, as an ex-convict he would have gotten life in prison, probably solitary confinement…

> I used to agree with this but honestly, the second Manning contacted him, he was complicit with the crime being committed Are you sure this is true? You don't have a duty to report anything just because you become knowledgeable of it. Mere knowledge doesn't make you complicit.

I don't know specifically in Manning's case, but yes, in general in the US, knowledge that a crime is about to be, is being, or has been committed can make you an accomplice and expose you to criminal liability.

In not all cases will knowledge alone necessarily be enough to convict you, but that doesn't mean a prosecutor might not try. An ex-con should probably not take the chance that a prosecutor will ignore prior knowledge of a criminal act.

Edit: I shouldn't say "knowledge alone." I should rather say that knowledge alone plus a zealous prosecutor. And then throw in prior conviction... Just a risky proposition. Knowledge alone with no other factors to tempt a prosecutor will probably not put you at any greater risk.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#86

Post by tptacek »

VonGuard wrote: post #22

So, I'm gonna lay it out here as I am having a bad day and don't feel like censoring myself. I'd known Adrian since 1998. He came to 2600 meetings in SF and was a fixture there. In that time, he generally didn't make any friends. While he was gay, he was also stalking a lady at the meetings, and being super creepy about it. Eventually, he left SF and was homeless. He got in trouble for hacking the NYT and making hims…

You met Adrian Lamo at 2600 meetings and wouldn't invite him to parties. Other people in the community were close friends with him and allowed him to stay in their homes for weeks or months. I don't know him really at all, but I think this is a poor way to sum anyone up.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#87

Post by lambda »

kragen wrote: post #5

I'm conflicted about this news. On one hand, he was one of us, and he shared his knowledge. On the other hand, he was a traitor, and he betrayed the trust of a true hero in order to put more unaccountable government power in the hands of people like Donald Trump. Who would have expected that Adrian Lamo would outlive Chelsea Manning? Did he commit suicide — as she nearly did?

> On the other hand, he was a traitor, and he betrayed the trust of a true hero

I don't know. I have a hard time with calling Chelsea Manning a true hero. While some of the information that she leaked was useful in exposing war crimes, there was a lot more that wasn't particularly relevant exposing military abuses, but was used by enemies to track down and kill those who were collaborating with the US.

> in order to put more unaccountable government power in the hands of people like Donald Trump

I'm not sure how what Adrian Lamo did would have given more power to Donald Trump. In fact, it's Wikileaks that ultimately wound up being critical in the election of Donald Trump; by dumping a lot of not particularly noteworthy private campaign emails, but which could be picked through and made to extend some controversies and conspiracy theories around Hillary Clinton, it was one of the key factors in getting Donald Trump elected.

While there has been some good, newsworthy information released on Wikileaks, it seems to have been corrupted by Russian influence, has a lot of alt-right tendencies including antisemitism (https://theintercept.com/2018/02/14/julian-assange-wikileaks... ); I think that overall, it has become a net negative on the world.

From what I can tell, Chelsea Manning meant well, did some good, but also did a lot of damage, including substantially raising Wikiseaks' profile. I think that whether to report the conversation with Manning to the authorities was likely a difficult one, but the concern about leaking significant amounts of non-newsworthy but potentially quite dangerous information was well founded.

> Did he commit suicide 

I don't think that's been revealed; but his Wikipedia article reports on several past struggles with substance abuse. Based on that, and general statistics on causes of death at that age, suicide, overdose, or motor vehicle accident seem like the most likely causes (https://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_o... for the leading causes of death, https://www.cdc.gov/injury/images/lc-charts/leading_causes_o... for the breakdown of the injury deaths by cause).

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#88

Post by groby_b »

throwaway9063 wrote: post #75
CiPHPerCoder wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a person's name from before they come out as transgender is called deadnaming and is a tactic favored among abusive people. The polite thing to do, regardless of personal politics, is to simply reassociate the person with the name Chelsea Manning and move on with your life.

"Hi, I know this is a thread about someone's passing, and I'm gonna let you finish, but unless you adopt my preferred method of reasoning on this tangential, hot-button topic that I haven't even given you a chance to properly discuss, you're an abusive person. The polite thing to do is to think and talk the way I'm telling you to and move on with your life, because otherwise, you're a monster."

Indeed. I can't go and punch people in the face because I'm sad about somebody passing, either. You do not get to abuse others just because you're grieving.

And no, it's not a "hot button issue", it's about basic respect. And you know it, too, or you wouldn't have created a throwaway account.

But troll on, merry soldier.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#89

Post by fruzz »

CydeWeys wrote: post #76
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #55

As an aside: didn't Lamo report Bradley Manning, it's surely rewriting history to report otherwise? I didn't recognise the name at first because of this change.

A name is a label (think C pointer) to a specific person. So yes, Lamo did report the person now known as Chelsea Manning. It was the person that was reported, not a name. Names in themselves are almost entirely inconsequential.

That's a really interesting way to frame it. Glad you posted that comment.

Re: Adrian Lamo has died

#90

Post by tptacek »

Reminder: Lamo is a public figure but also a real person with real relationships with people who will read this thread. You are all commenting on a Facebook thread written by Lamo's dad about the death of his son.
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