'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#101

Post by beojan » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 1:56 PM UTC

vixen99 wrote: post #33

djhworld wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the problem for the older generation, especially here in the UK, is they were raised on imperial units and have never really gotten used to metric. Not saying that excuses it, but it could explain part of the reason why some people don't fully grasp the £-per-X calculations

If you could/can work out the change from a pound on a 4s-6½ (four shillings and six and a halfpence) packet of fags (circa 1050s), you'd hardly be likely to have much problem with metric. [As was: 1 pound = 240 pence = 20 shillings i.e. 1 shilling = 12 pence]

I don't think they had tobacco in the 1050s.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#102

Post by hitekker » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 2:12 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #93

volgo wrote: post #3

Some of the skills tested in the study seem more like arithmetics rather than financial skills: - "About a quarter could not work out how much change they should receive from a shop..." - "About one in three adults struggled to work out the price they had to pay.. per litre or per kilo" - "About half could not read a simple financial line graph" - "Most struggled to calculate discounts involving more complex calculat…

Anything involving the stock market is far from simple. And "don't spend money on stupid things" is more class signaling than financial advice. Who decides what is "stupid?" If it's important to you, why not estimate how much of an impact the purchase will have on your budget, and decide based on that? That requires math. I dunno, I do arithmetic in my head just about every day. I can't imagine engaging in any sort o…

> "don't spend money on stupid things" is more class signaling than financial advance.

If it weren’t for the sneering tone of the GP, the advice could have been meant as “don’t buy transient things that are beyond your means”

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#103

Post by gumby » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 2:16 PM UTC

_ah wrote: post #11

Kuiper wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially when you consider that most supermarket labels will also include the "price per unit weight" or "price per unit volume" on the shelf with a smaller font, it becomes trivially easy to compare which bottle of soap is going to get you the most for your money. Or maybe you neglect to do this (simply opting for the container that looks the most appealing rather than optimizing for the amount of liquid per dolla…

I've started noticing some sneaky math in my local supermarket. When comparing two items, both list the unit price, but they list the price in different units. Example: A 1.4-lb package lists the price per oz, while the 0.8-lb package lists the price per lb. In every case, the intent seems too be an attempt to induce math errors and cause someone to accidentally purchase the package with the higher true unit price.

Yeah, Whole Foods in particular often lists the price "per item" (one package of 14.5 oz at $8.25 "per item" and another of 12 oz at $6.10 "per item") which makes a mockery of the unit pricing law. I wrote to the A.G. a few years ago but nothing happened.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#104

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 2:19 PM UTC

arkryne wrote: post #89

apo wrote: post #79

Some will look and this and say, "big deal, people can't do math in their heads." There may be more to it. Consider the recent "riddle" in which a man buys a horse, sells it, and buys it back again, then sells it. The question is, how much money did the man make or lose: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/math-riddle-quiz-q... It was so simple to me that it seemed like it must be a trick question. It's not. I…

I had a really funny experience trying that problem. As I began reading it, I developed a strong desire to glean over it and 'just get done with it' and felt a distracting buzz in my mind. I enjoy studying maths and doing proofs myself but I got this basic questions wrong. I just went'ugh, started with 60 spent, ended up selling for 90' and I went wrong with it. The point is, I felt a strong aversion to word problems…

It's because word problems are nothing but obfuscation. Here's the same problem written out in conventional mathematical notation:

(-60 + 70) + (-80 + 90)

Boy, that's pretty straightforward isn't it?

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#105

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

Double_a_92 wrote: post #95

bramjans wrote: post #17

Having lived for a while in Chile (where according to the article financial literacy is below average), my experience very much agrees with this. I noticed many people struggling with basic arithmetic resulting in me having to check the change at small shops since it would often be wrong. It also leads to people making crazy decisions with respect to choosing to buy in cash or on credit (in quota). I'm not talking ab…

> labels including the "price per unit weight/volume" We overestimate the average person. Not everybody knows what that even means. They just don't have a concept of ratios that can be compared. > go for the cheaper product price. That might still be a valid option if the packaged quantities differ my a lot. E.g. if I only need 100g of ham for a sandwich, it's not better to buy a whole 1kg piece if that's just going…

I don't think we overestimate people necessarily, I think we overestimate how much they desire to spend their time thinking about the same things we do.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#106

Post by smcl » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #60

smcl wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this from experience or general "I read that exams got easier" hearsay? I got good coverage of all the topics you discussed (however I'm not sure what "math analysis" refers to). I went through the Scottish system (ending around 2003) but I cannot imagine it was much different/worse in England, NI and Wales and I've no reason to believe they made things easier.

I wanted to say that it is not only arithmetics that is bad, but the whole math field in general. Unlike in cases where a general knowledge of the field is there, but the person can't calculate 2+2 without a calculator.

Right and I was asking if this is from experience (i.e. you went through the system or worked in the UK or with UK-educated people).

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#107

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

jandrewrogers wrote: post #4

These aren't even "financial" skills but a lack of basic arithmetic ability. It is a failure of the education system. I expect if we tested for actual financial skills the results would be even worse, as that requires some domain knowledge beyond basic arithmetic. I'm not sure this is easily fixable; most people I know have a very limited interest in understanding financial maths.

I don't think the education system is at fault. Mental arithmetic is a skill you need to practice, and since a lot of us either spend a lot of time at a computer or always have one in our pocket, why would we?

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#108

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 2:25 PM UTC

poster123 wrote: post #76

folli wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To follow this line of thought, you're then advocating for heavy inheritance taxation? A heir of a multi-billion dollar fortune is not more likely to have an above average IQ or be more responsible, so he should start from scratch as does the average Joe?

Billionaires are smarter, more hardworking, and ambitious on average, and there is likely some genetic competent to each of these qualities. Certainly there is for IQ. Is your guess for the average IQ of Bill Gates' children 100? I'd guess say 130.

Exactly the same reasoning can be used to justify monarchy.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#109

Post by smcl » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #85

throwawayts wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Times Higher Education rankings puts 3 UK universities in the top 10 worldwide for physical sciences and for engineering. Or do you just mean they aren't considered attractive careers to students and children?

I meant socially those in the stem professions are looked down on.

By whom? I have not experienced this at all. STEM jobs are by UK standards well paid and would be considered solid respectable to enter by everyone I can think of.

Unless you're comparing the salaries in these to those of Bankers ... but that's a whole different kettle of fish, and there's the added complication that Bankers are actually actively disliked by an overwhelming majority of the population.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#110

Post by giardini » Thu, Mar 15, 2018, 2:39 PM UTC

amichal wrote: post #62

At a local Starbucks the other day the person working the register insisted the quarter(25c) I gave him was nickle(5c). Later when giving me 16c in change he gave me a quarter and a penny. At McDonalds the next day I was refunded for a 4.67 order that took too long with 5.50 cents. My experience matches the article. On a more serious note: We design software for use by finance experts. After user testing we’ve had to…

amichal says>After user testing we’ve had to:... - remove “percentile” after no one could agree if 99th percentile was higher or lower then 1st..."

IIRC studies show that people comprehend natural frequencies (e.g., "10 of every 1000 women have cancer") more easily than they do percentages ("1% women have cancer").