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'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

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91–100 of 140 posts

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#91
post #79

Some will look and this and say, "big deal, people can't do math in their heads." There may be more to it. Consider the recent "riddle" in which a man buys a horse, sells it, and buys it back again, then sells it. The question is, how much money did the man make or lose: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/math-riddle-quiz-q... It was so simple to me that it seemed like it must be a trick question. It's not. I…

I wonder how many would struggle if it was presented simply a 0-60+70-80+90=? rather than the block of text in the article.

At least for me the problem is that when i get a block of text like that i get distracted from the math by scrutinizing how everything is worded, in case there is a trick question.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#92
post #9

They don't control for age, so their study is worthless. Many of the countries mentioned as "the worst" have ageing populations and lots of emigrants.

I hope you really mean "emigrants", so smart people leaving their home countries, leaving the aging population that was not capable of going abroad.

And I think people downvote because they assume you mean "immigrants" being stupid and thereby decreasing the average IQ in countries with lots of immigrants.

The second statement I would also downvote, but until I'm convinced of the opposite I assume you mean the first.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#93
post #3

Some of the skills tested in the study seem more like arithmetics rather than financial skills: - "About a quarter could not work out how much change they should receive from a shop..." - "About one in three adults struggled to work out the price they had to pay.. per litre or per kilo" - "About half could not read a simple financial line graph" - "Most struggled to calculate discounts involving more complex calculat…

Anything involving the stock market is far from simple. And "don't spend money on stupid things" is more class signaling than financial advice. Who decides what is "stupid?" If it's important to you, why not estimate how much of an impact the purchase will have on your budget, and decide based on that? That requires math.

I dunno, I do arithmetic in my head just about every day. I can't imagine engaging in any sort of business transaction without that skill. Even just going to the grocery store, not being able to round, add, and multiply, means you're always going to be surprised at the cash register. I'd much rather know how much I'm going to spend before I get to the cash register so I don't look silly asking them to put things back for me.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#94
post #31
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially when you consider that most supermarket labels will also include the "price per unit weight" or "price per unit volume" on the shelf with a smaller font, it becomes trivially easy to compare which bottle of soap is going to get you the most for your money. Or maybe you neglect to do this (simply opting for the container that looks the most appealing rather than optimizing for the amount of liquid per dolla…

You think someone who can't solve arithmetic problems is going to understand the consequences of compound interest and the TCO of revolving debt?

People are mixing "solving arithmetic problems" with "solving arithmetic problems without paper or calculator". Furthermore, GP's example mixes "can't calculate price per pound" with "Can't read a line graph". The former is okay, the more I advance in graduate training as a mathematician, the less I'm able to do mental math. The latter is bad.

There are good reasons for teaching mental math to children, but for adults, really, calculators exist. If you can't calculate price-per-pound with a calculator, you have a low IQ (can't translate a simple written instruction to pressing buttons on your phone) and should be elligible for government aid. But if you can't calculate discounts, compound interest, read graphs, etc -- these can be taught.

Should be taught. For example: banks could condition debt renegotiations to attendance to special financial education classes for adults. Governments could incentivize banks to do so by picking up part of the check for reduced debt.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#95

Having lived for a while in Chile (where according to the article financial literacy is below average), my experience very much agrees with this. I noticed many people struggling with basic arithmetic resulting in me having to check the change at small shops since it would often be wrong. It also leads to people making crazy decisions with respect to choosing to buy in cash or on credit (in quota). I'm not talking ab…

> labels including the "price per unit weight/volume"

We overestimate the average person. Not everybody knows what that even means. They just don't have a concept of ratios that can be compared.

> go for the cheaper product price.

That might still be a valid option if the packaged quantities differ my a lot. E.g. if I only need 100g of ham for a sandwich, it's not better to buy a whole 1kg piece if that's just going to rot in my fridge.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#96
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that mean that socialism (a necessarily coercive human-elaborated system) assumes people are stupid and make trades and decisions that are irrational and bad for them? Perhaps it does in denial of the evidence from the history of the 20th century. People don't have to be sold on capitalism. It comes naturally because it's not a scheme devised by some right-wing Marx though people have elaborated on it. People tr…

It's completely baffling to me that you could be so… short-sighted, I guess? Capitalism revolves around the concept of private ownership, which in itself requires the rule of law to be effective – definitionally a "coercive human-elaborated system". Moreover, in order to be effective, capitalism requires efficient, well-informed, competitive, free markets. We can directly observe that competition requires state inter…

One may also need to recognize that thinking in market terms have its limits.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...catastrophic consequences of spending $9 per month on dish soap when you could have spent $7.20 instead. Indeed, for the poor, it doesn't take too many of these $1.80 differences to add up to catastrophe.

I feel like a lot of people don't realize how much small changes can add up. For a lot of people living paycheck to paycheck, they would be broke regardless of whether they earned $1500/ month or $2000/ month, because their spending adjusts upward any chance they get. If you optimize your purchases on the margin, you can escape this trap much easier.

If you can plan, purchase and store in bulk then you can save money on essentials. That's about it. Then you have to get rid of as many subscription based items you can.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#98
post #40
post #3

Some of the skills tested in the study seem more like arithmetics rather than financial skills: - "About a quarter could not work out how much change they should receive from a shop..." - "About one in three adults struggled to work out the price they had to pay.. per litre or per kilo" - "About half could not read a simple financial line graph" - "Most struggled to calculate discounts involving more complex calculat…

> like monitoring your credit, your spending, creating a budget, pay off credit card in full, pay down high interest debt ASAP, avoid pay day loans, don't spend money on stupid things, invest in high quality index funds, etc. IMHO this all starts with the fact that many people I've encountered simply do not understand the difference between income and assets. In fact, I run into this all of the time on HN with people…

In the US, at least, this is possibly because a not-insignificant number of people have zero or even negative net assets:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_in_the_United_States

It's hard to comprehend something you've never had (or, in some cases, even imagined you could have). I have friends who live paycheck to paycheck. For them, budgeting, saving, investing, long-term financial planning, etc. are completely foreign ideas. Part of this is an intergenerational legacy of poverty: their parents weren't in a position to think about these things either, so they were never raised to think about it - and so, like many North Americans, they spend money they don't have on things they don't need, work punishing hours at close to minimum wage to make up the difference, and are left with no time / energy afterwards to learn better.

To compound the issue: even if they did have the time / energy to learn better, they can't secure the kind of credit that would enable them to quickly pay off their high-interest debts. It's deeply frustrating to watch, but this is what one step above abject poverty looks like. You have a lot of (well-meaning!) people telling you "just do X", without realizing that X often requires you have up-front capital, good credit, spare time, or any of the other things people in more stable financial situations take for granted. (I've been that person a few times, advising them to do things that to me are common sense - only to find out that, for them, those "common sense" steps are impossible.)

In that sort of environment, it's meaningless to ask someone what the time value of money is; they have more serious structural problems with their finances that no amount of high-level philosophizing will solve.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#99
After reading 'Thinking Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman, I'm not surprised people can't calculate their bill and determine change in line at the super market. Solving math problems like that requires deliberate focus and effort. Nobody has the time or energy to do that on line at the supermarket. Most probably estimate.

Re: 'Striking weaknesses' in adult financial skills

#100
post #78
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And heaven knows programmers can't multiply by 16.

Only bad programmers multiply by 16. The good ones use a bit shift.

For about the last 15 years the compiler will generated the same code in either case. Thats really old advice!
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