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A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

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Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#421

Post by ericb »

ajuc wrote: post #397
ericb wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no merge. The question is not whether it is a crime, that's irrelevant. The question is, which one you prefer I terminate. You, the one I'm talking to, or the other person in the other room. The preference most people have is "the other one" which pretty much lays bare that these two instances are not, in fact, equivalent because they are "in" one of these consciousnesses, and not the other.

If there's no merge, then these 2 copies diverged and are not the same, so I prefer me. If there was a merge then there should be no difference.

> then these 2 copies diverged and are not the same

I agree.

For me, this implies divergence, even divergence of location (which happens automatically on a copy) is a change of identity, and so true identity must be inextricably linked to a continuity of location through time. Because of this, I reason that any copy operation, even a destructive one, is a change of identity and not-me, because it is really just a creation of a second instance and as mentioned, I would prefer this instance keep running over another if faced with my murderous thought experiment.

If merged into me, I agree it could become part of new-me.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#422

Post by yters »

khazhoux wrote: post #295
yters wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's what the majority of the world believes, and science has no idea what consciousness is. So, there is zero basis parent is wrong. Plus, there are all kinds of problems and contradictions if the mind reduces to matter.

Matter + electricity. What problems and contradictions?

How can matter + electricity access immaterial mathematical objects?

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#423

Post by yters »

istjohn wrote: post #282
yters wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's what the majority of the world believes, and science has no idea what consciousness is. So, there is zero basis parent is wrong. Plus, there are all kinds of problems and contradictions if the mind reduces to matter.

If only reality conformed to democratic norms...

It usually does, hence why they are democratic.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#424

Post by mirimir »

e12e wrote: post #354
WatermelonApe wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I watched the Netflix series and I really liked the premise but found the story and acting lacking in some areas. However I really liked the noir protagonist and the scene you described was my favorite episode in the show. I am interested how the story continues. Are the books much better than the show? How would you rate the trilogy among your favorite cyberpunk novels? Thanks.

I'd rate the second book (broken angels) as one of my favourite sci-fi books (which might include tiger,Tiger/the stars my destination, neuromancer, fire upon the deep, holy Fire... There are many great ones). I started with that one though, and then read the other two. I'd say overall as a triology, it rates alongside neuromancer /the sprawl triology. A little more pulp - but a similar serious take on technological…

Broken Angels is also my favorite. Kovacs is an extremely complex character. He's been tweaked so much, in becoming an Envoy, that he's fundamentally an AI. He's somewhat like the vampires in Peter Watts' novels.

Also, I'm very impressed by Morgan's skill in writing action. Maybe that's what you mean by "pulp".

I also loved the "A Land Fit For Heroes" trilogy. I hadn't read fantasy for years. And from that, I discovered Joe Abercrombie and Matthew Woodring Stover.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#425

Post by SolarNet »

mozumder wrote: post #182
SolarNet wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's non-falsifiable, which is the actual standard of science, because we don't have a test for it yet. We'd have to have something to observe and measure, something to test. As some quick examples for this specific case: * There are mental disorders, drugs, experiences that seem to imply dualism; those are entirely inside those people's mind with no way to prove those experiences are true, or simply products of the…

> It's non-falsifiable You just made an assertion. Now you have to prove it. If the idea that the spirit is another fundamental force of nature is true, then it can be tested and be falsifiable.

I can't think of a test, many people haven't been able to, and neither can you apparently, until someone has a test it is effectively non-falsifiable.

Science isn't about proof, if observations change (primarily improve) then we change what we think we know. Which is why the above is all the "proof" I need. you can falsify it very simply. Provide a test. I have met my burden.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#426

Post by stordoff »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #412
stordoff wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dying may not be meaningful, but it may be useful. Let's say hypothetically we eliminate death, for everyone. Let's further say it developed in such a way that it didn't lead to a more stratified society (e.g. it rapidly became available to all, so the early mover advantage when it was expensive is minimal). In the short term, that's great, incredible even: everyone lives! In the long term though, do we stagnate on t…

People become increasingly competent as they gain experience, until the deleterious effects of aging outweigh the value of their experience gains. Without aging deteriorating minds and bodies and cutting lives short, individuals will become extremely productive over time, and able to pursue and carry out very long-term projects and drive humanity forward. This will open up countless spaces for human expansion, where…

People become increasingly competent, but they will also becoming increasingly ingrained in the current ways of thinking and current understanding. Many (certainly not all) sea changes come new people coming to a field - think about how we view figures like Einstein or Hawking. Their breakthroughs didn't come after many decades immersed in the field, but relatively early in their lives/careers. My concern was that we would drive towards a local maxima, and lose the new ideas that push us even further forward.

Also FWIW it was deliberately tilted negative to illustrate that eliminating death is not _necessarily_ a good thing, but there will most definitely be major advantages to it as well.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#427

Post by sulam »

sulam wrote: post #94
sulam wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels straightforward to me. The you that is now, pre-preservation, will be dead. The you that is then, post-restoration, will be alive and believe and behave as if they are you. It's convenient that this process (as described) kills you, because that simplifies things quite a lot. Scanning is more complicated, and I suspect if technology ever arrives that allows for it we will treat such scans as "heirs of the…

Oh, and one more case that's interesting -- we know the "embalming" process fixes things such that you are now dead. However we don't know what the reading process looks like yet. If _that_ is non-destructive (and I can't think of any way that it _wouldn't_ be effectively non-destructive, since any transformation should be amenable to duplication), then you could be resurrected an infinite number of times. I haven't…

The more I think about this the more I think it has some really wild implications. The earliest restores are likely to be less high fidelity than later restores, just because that's the nature of technology (getting better over time). Does this mean that later restores will somehow be "more authoritative" than previous? Who knows?!

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#428

Post by CryptoPunk »

stordoff wrote: post #426
CryptoPunk wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People become increasingly competent as they gain experience, until the deleterious effects of aging outweigh the value of their experience gains. Without aging deteriorating minds and bodies and cutting lives short, individuals will become extremely productive over time, and able to pursue and carry out very long-term projects and drive humanity forward. This will open up countless spaces for human expansion, where…

People become increasingly competent, but they will also becoming increasingly ingrained in the current ways of thinking and current understanding. Many (certainly not all) sea changes come new people coming to a field - think about how we view figures like Einstein or Hawking. Their breakthroughs didn't come after many decades immersed in the field, but relatively early in their lives/careers. My concern was that we…

That's a fair point and it's worth considering possible negative effects. I still maintain that the positive effects, insofar as we can anticipate effects of changes made to extremely complex and chaotic structures, are obviously more likely than not going to greatly outweigh the negatives. The biggest positive is that we won't have to experience impeding death and the death of our loved ones, which is the worst human experience.

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#429

Post by basementcat »

Are people in the future going to find bootleg copies of other peoples' consciousness on torrents? When will we be able to check ourselves into Github? After you see that particularly horrifying youtube video, you might be able to roll yourself back to a previous commit and literally unsee what you have seen!

Re: A startup is pitching a mind-uploading service that is “100 percent fatal”

#430

Post by mozumder »

SolarNet wrote: post #425
mozumder wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's non-falsifiable You just made an assertion. Now you have to prove it. If the idea that the spirit is another fundamental force of nature is true, then it can be tested and be falsifiable.

I can't think of a test, many people haven't been able to, and neither can you apparently, until someone has a test it is effectively non-falsifiable. Science isn't about proof, if observations change (primarily improve) then we change what we think we know. Which is why the above is all the "proof" I need. you can falsify it very simply. Provide a test. I have met my burden.

So, if you can't back up the assertion that it's not testable, you have "effectively" lost the argument.

Go back 90 years. How do you know there isn't a 4th fundamental force of nature?

Science isn't about making assertions and not being able to back it up.

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