Live data from Hacker News

Would You Unschool Your Child?

unlimitedmagazine.com

111–120 of 121 posts

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#111
post #11

[deleted]

knarf_navillus, the description of your cousins who are unschooling which means running wild, being filthy and illiterate, actually sounds like a different movement called "radical unschooling". Radical unschoolers often call themselves unschoolers, and some perhaps are, but others will adopt positions such as books are oppressive to children, and eating ice cream for all meals and watching daytime adult TV from 10am to 4pm every day is fine if that's what the child feels is best for them at the time, and discouraging such pursuits, or even failing to fully and enthusiastically support them means the parent is not truly committed to the tenets of radical unschooling.

(Your aunt isn't S.D. is she?)

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#112
post #56
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> children don't have the experience and exposure to make optimal decisions. The argument here is, I believe: "What is the best way to get children experience and exposure? A. Experience and exposure B. Lectures about A.

[deleted]

My recollection of John Holt's writings -- admittedly somewhat fuzzy, but some 25 years ago I read all his books and even did some volunteer work for him, so I think I got the gist -- certainly doesn't include a recommendation to abandon one's kids to their own devices. He did argue that we could trust kids' instincts about things like when they get interested in learning to read, but I don't think he would ever have told parents not to pay attention to their kids or spend time with them -- which, though you don't say so specifically, sounds like part of what's going on here.

John believed in children very much -- believed in the wisdom of the natural unfolding of their interests and abilities. And he encouraged parents to believe in them too. My recollection is that it was not common for parents who had read his books and were corresponding with him and one another through his newsletter (Growing Without Schooling) to have kids turn out in the manner you describe; quite the contrary. While I'm wary about putting words in John's mouth, I suspect he would have agreed that there's something wrong in this situation, even if he might not have completely agreed with you about what it is.

I do recall occasional stories of kids who showed no interest in reading until they were quite old -- around 10, as I recall. But the usual ending of the story was that at some point they did become interested, not just casually but quite voraciously, so that they more or less caught up with other kids their age.

As for the "manipulation" -- I certainly don't think reading to your kids, to take an important example, would be outside the bounds of unschooling as I understand it. I don't think unschooling is supposed to be like the Prime Directive in Star Trek, where one has to strive to have as little impact of any kind on one's children as possible. That's nuts and I don't think John would ever have endorsed it.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#113

When I have kids, I might consider this. One of my big fears is that I may not be the most qualified person to teach my children. The idea of un-schooling actually reminds me of a program that I went through in elementary school. When I was in elementary school, I was identified as a "gifted" pupil. Once a week, I was removed from regular class for a few hours and sent to the GATE program (Gifted And Talented Educati…

"One of my big fears is that I may not be the most qualified person to teach my children."

Maybe not "the most qualified", but you sound pretty smart to me, and there are a lot of thoroughly unqualified teachers in the school systems. I think you'll find you can pick up anything you need to know pretty quickly.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#114
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

My recollection of John Holt's writings -- admittedly somewhat fuzzy, but some 25 years ago I read all his books and even did some volunteer work for him, so I think I got the gist -- certainly doesn't include a recommendation to abandon one's kids to their own devices. He did argue that we could trust kids' instincts about things like when they get interested in learning to read, but I don't think he would ever have…

The late literacy issue is a very interesting one. I think there is something to be said that different children are best ready to read at different ages.

Supposedly in Finland they don't start school to learn to read until age 7 and their country is ranked #1 worldwide in education.

Among unschooling circles, one hears about children who have no interest in reading until age 10, then suddenly learn to read and go on to be an english lit major at a reputable school or such.

I believe I read that Jessica Watson, the Australian young woman who recently broke the record for youngest solo nonstop circumnavigation, learned to read at age 10.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#115

Tried it. Didn't work for my children. As the article says though, it's not for everyone. My kids are super-smart, but lazy, and unfortunately need structure. I homeschooled them for several years, but both of them asked to go to "real" school eventually, one by the age of 6 and the other by 8 (they were about 2 years ahead of the other kids when they enrolled). I think that it's worth the experiment though, but be p…

But it's you who should motivate them and provide structure for the learning, no?

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#116
post #77
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thing I'm most excited about for the future of the internet. Forget Amazon - anyone with an internet connection has access to audio and video lectures, notes and classwork from Harvard, MIT and others. Almost anything you want to learn can be picked up online, and (illegal though it is) any book you want to read can be found online. But the best part is, this hasn't sunk in yet . So few people understand…

But the best part is, this hasn't sunk in yet. So few people understand that the world has gotten to a stage where you can get a university-level education by yourself, based on what you feel like learning, from the comfort of your own home. But you can't, at least not in the biological sciences, unless your home has an autoclave, ultracentrifuge, laminar flow hood, etc. Same could be said for civil engineering, chem…

Suppose there were facilities to rent lab space by the hour?

You'd need some formal training on safety issues but maybe you could get educated a lot more cheaply then with the full university system.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#117
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Do you ask every non-awkward person you meet whether they were home-schooled? Do you ask every awkward person you meet whether they were home-schooled? Do you keep a running count? Sounds like sample and/or confirmation bias.

>The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. I've seen this a few times. I assume you mean anecdotes told by liars? Surely a plurality of true statements constitutes data? The strength of that data for interpretation or prediction is limited by the number of data points, for sure, but I don't really get why this aphorism is supposed to be true.

It is, of course, literally true that data is composed of a collection of data points -- you could call them anecdotes if you wanted to. But the point of the aphorism is that you can't go the other direction.

Anecdotes are isolated instances, things people remember and tell because they are interesting. They lack any sort of statistical control or rigorous documentation. If you have a bunch of anecdotes about socially awkward homeschoolers, you don't have any actual data on the incidence of social awkwardness among homeschoolers. You just have have a bunch of anecdotes.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#118
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

My recollection of John Holt's writings -- admittedly somewhat fuzzy, but some 25 years ago I read all his books and even did some volunteer work for him, so I think I got the gist -- certainly doesn't include a recommendation to abandon one's kids to their own devices. He did argue that we could trust kids' instincts about things like when they get interested in learning to read, but I don't think he would ever have…

It's quite possible that my relatives, even though they are zealous defenders of unschooling, have misunderstood this point somewhat, or have otherwise decided to revise Holt's original message for whatever reason. Unfortunately, a lot of ideas tend to take on a life of their own once they begin to spread, and the original inventor of the idea has little control over it; they may end up getting credit for ideas they never espoused, for better or for worse. I apologize if I've mischaracterized unschooling. Everything I know about it is based on what I've learned from my relatives.

To them, it's not quite about being inattentive to your children; quite the opposite. It's about giving them whatever they want. It would not be hyperbole to say that, in their view, a parent should serve the child much like a valet. So it's not that they ignore their children, it's just that they have infinite trust in their children to decide for themselves what is best. So, if they don't want to go to the doctor to get a shot, they don't have to. If they want to eat candy for supper instead of a nutritious meal, candy is what they'll eat. If they want to play instead of do chores, then they will play. They are never asked to do something that they don't want to do, because a parent is not allowed to impose their will upon the child. As such, the parents often run themselves ragged trying to keep up with their child's demands, and the children end up very spoiled and totally unprepared for adulthood.

From what you've described of John Holt's writings, it sounds like he and I would agree on a lot of things. I definitely believe in listening to your child's cues. I also believe in manipulating the situation so as to foster an interest. I'm not sure if he would agree with that or not. I call it a 'manipulation' because it's indirect: instead of directly insisting and pushing my child to read, I try to indirectly entice her into taking the initiative by showing that reading can be fun and rewarding.

In any case, I wouldn't put it past my relatives to misconstrue the true foundations of the unschooling movement, which is why I am always careful to add that I might not be understanding it correctly.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#119
post #111
post #11

[deleted]

knarf_navillus, the description of your cousins who are unschooling which means running wild, being filthy and illiterate, actually sounds like a different movement called "radical unschooling". Radical unschoolers often call themselves unschoolers, and some perhaps are, but others will adopt positions such as books are oppressive to children, and eating ice cream for all meals and watching daytime adult TV from 10am…

Those aren't her initials, if that's what you mean. But this sounds exactly like what my relatives practice. Thanks for the information, I was not aware of a distinction between unschooling and radical unschooling.

Re: Would You Unschool Your Child?

#120
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Do you ask every non-awkward person you meet whether they were home-schooled? Do you ask every awkward person you meet whether they were home-schooled? Do you keep a running count? Sounds like sample and/or confirmation bias.

>The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. I've seen this a few times. I assume you mean anecdotes told by liars? Surely a plurality of true statements constitutes data? The strength of that data for interpretation or prediction is limited by the number of data points, for sure, but I don't really get why this aphorism is supposed to be true.

Because of the selection process. If you are trying to make a judgment about an entire population based on a small sample, the chance of getting a non-representative sample is already high. If the sample is selected on the basis of what sticks out in memory, the chance of it being representative is almost nil. Though an interesting anecdote or two can be considered data, they are notoriously unreliable as a basis for statistical judgments.
Post reply on HN