Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber • Hacker News Board

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#61

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #41

ghaff wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would seem to be a very urbanite view of the world. A lot of people have good reasons for owning their own personalized vehicle. (Gear, kids, mobile storage locker, etc.) So long as you live somewhere with enough space that storing a vehicle isn't expensive/difficult, given that most of the costs are in mileage, it's hard to see most people giving up ownership. And, in any case, full door to door autonomy, in at…

Kids is a big thing -- needing specific car seats means taxis are out until your kids are 12. That said the average car costs $34k in the US and lasts say 10 years, that's $3,400 a year. Maintenence, taxes, etc another $1500 at least, that's $5k/yr before you move an inch. While automatic cars may not get rid of everything, many 2 or 3 car families, especially in the suburbs, may drop to 1.

[deleted]

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#62

Post by isostatic » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #57

isostatic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of america, how many people routinely travel by taxi/rideshare/etc. In my experience, most locals take public transport. The international businessperson (on expenses) is a large market -- look at the size of the market for hotels, airlines, etc. The one place I see taxis in use as mass transit by normal people is Singapore, where they are mostly ubiquitous (in the centre) and cheap. Even then getting a taxi…

China: taxis and ride sharing is extremely popular with the middle class. "Most locals" do take public transit, but given 10 million people in Beijing alone, some is still a large number. Most developing Asian economies have thriving taxi industries where taking a taxi isn't considered a niche service/extreme luxury. Heck, taxis were never that popular in America, nowhere near how they were popular in China in even 1…

I took a taxi in beijing a few years ago. Was in it about 40 mintues, traveled about a mile. Paid the driver a 20 Yuan note (about $3) and went into the hotel. Driver came running after me with 8yuan in change.

I assume taxis are still insanely cheap, and traffic is still insanely bad. Last time I was there I took the train and metro. I do the same in Moscow - why sit in traffic?

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#63

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #62

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China: taxis and ride sharing is extremely popular with the middle class. "Most locals" do take public transit, but given 10 million people in Beijing alone, some is still a large number. Most developing Asian economies have thriving taxi industries where taking a taxi isn't considered a niche service/extreme luxury. Heck, taxis were never that popular in America, nowhere near how they were popular in China in even 1…

I took a taxi in beijing a few years ago. Was in it about 40 mintues, traveled about a mile. Paid the driver a 20 Yuan note (about $3) and went into the hotel. Driver came running after me with 8yuan in change. I assume taxis are still insanely cheap, and traffic is still insanely bad. Last time I was there I took the train and metro. I do the same in Moscow - why sit in traffic?

Have you seen Beijing's subway? I travelled to and from work off hours, so I would go to work around 6:30 and come home around 3:30-4, taking the taxi to and from each day was totally feasible and affordable. Even in peak traffic, you still might win in a taxi vs. a subway depending on where you are going. When the whole system melts down, sure, take the subway as a last resort.

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#64

Post by isostatic » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 4:45 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #51

isostatic wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kids is a big thing -- needing specific car seats means taxis are out until your kids are 12. That said the average car costs $34k in the US and lasts say 10 years, that's $3,400 a year. Maintenence, taxes, etc another $1500 at least, that's $5k/yr before you move an inch. While automatic cars may not get rid of everything, many 2 or 3 car families, especially in the suburbs, may drop to 1.

Normal car expenses are around $0.55/mile for an average car. The average joe pays about $8,000-$8,500 annually for all car related expenses. Some pay more for fancy stuff or utility. That's why suburbs exist. Financially, it's a much better deal for families on just about any axis.

With an average 13-15k miles a year, at 20-30mpg that's about 400-750 gallons a year, or $1000-$2000 a year in gas, leaving the vast majority of expense in deprecation and maintenence.

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#65

Post by ghaff » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #63

isostatic wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took a taxi in beijing a few years ago. Was in it about 40 mintues, traveled about a mile. Paid the driver a 20 Yuan note (about $3) and went into the hotel. Driver came running after me with 8yuan in change. I assume taxis are still insanely cheap, and traffic is still insanely bad. Last time I was there I took the train and metro. I do the same in Moscow - why sit in traffic?

Have you seen Beijing's subway? I travelled to and from work off hours, so I would go to work around 6:30 and come home around 3:30-4, taking the taxi to and from each day was totally feasible and affordable. Even in peak traffic, you still might win in a taxi vs. a subway depending on where you are going. When the whole system melts down, sure, take the subway as a last resort.

I took Beijing's subway around quite a bit last summer. At least where I was going, it seemed preferable to sitting in traffic. Payment seemed easier to navigate as well compared to the prior time I visited. I'd have said it was a pretty decent subway system overall.

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#66

Post by billmalarky » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

jseliger wrote: post #46

mancerayder wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fellow Brooklynite here, and I agree 100%. I can't believe the hubris of these guys, trying to get me to get out of the cab after they hear I live in Brooklyn. And BTW, I'm JUST over the bridge in Brooklyn, about 10 minutes from the E River in traffic! It's the tourists that suffer, or the newbies, who aren't as rude as us New Yorkers - they'll doubtless exit the cabbie who says, "Sorry, not going there." I don't exi…

The best part of car services may be safety. About 1 out of every 10 cab rides entailed crazy and/or dangerous driving. I don't think I've ever seen that in Uber or other car shares, because if a driver drives poorly, they'll be rated poorly. And the mutual-rating system seems to improve passenger behavior too.

I've been in cabs where it was clear the driver did not have a license, or had somehow cheated the system in order to get one. One man did not understand basic concepts like how to turn left at a red light. He believed he had the right of way to turn left at all times (I guess he was confused into thinking having a "green arrow" was standard for all lights even if they didn't have one) and when oncoming cars would keep coming at him he would slam the brakes out of fear instead of punching the gas - stopping in front of traffic! Thankfully no one t-boned us but when the oncoming traffic drivers would honk at him he would honk back and get angry (whilst stopping in place due to slamming the brakes). I was only in the cab for about 1.5 miles but this happened at 2 or 3 lights. This was in Queens! I shudder to think of what would happen to him and his passengers in Manhattan.

Horrifying.

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#67

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #65

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen Beijing's subway? I travelled to and from work off hours, so I would go to work around 6:30 and come home around 3:30-4, taking the taxi to and from each day was totally feasible and affordable. Even in peak traffic, you still might win in a taxi vs. a subway depending on where you are going. When the whole system melts down, sure, take the subway as a last resort.

I took Beijing's subway around quite a bit last summer. At least where I was going, it seemed preferable to sitting in traffic. Payment seemed easier to navigate as well compared to the prior time I visited. I'd have said it was a pretty decent subway system overall.

I think if you are exploring the city during rush hour, sure subway makes sense. If you have a fixed route you go between everyday and know when the traffic ebs and flows, taxis are much more convenient. If you are out at night after rush hour, then taxis are the obvious choice.

Beijing's subway system is crowded, some routes are super crowded (line 10, ugh), interchanges can be long and windy, and can also have their own long lines (e.g. transferring at dongzhimen during rush hour). There are a lot more lines definitely then when I started living there (2007, line 10 didn't even exist yet), but there are very good reasons didi is still extremely popular.

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#68

Post by ghaff » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #64

Spooky23 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normal car expenses are around $0.55/mile for an average car. The average joe pays about $8,000-$8,500 annually for all car related expenses. Some pay more for fancy stuff or utility. That's why suburbs exist. Financially, it's a much better deal for families on just about any axis.

With an average 13-15k miles a year, at 20-30mpg that's about 400-750 gallons a year, or $1000-$2000 a year in gas, leaving the vast majority of expense in deprecation and maintenence.

>leaving the vast majority of expense in deprecation and maintenence.

Depending on the car, gas is probably between about 20% and a third of a car's operating costs (which are typically in the 30 cent to 60 cent per mile range). Although there are a few vehicle costs, like excise taxes, that are more or less independent of distance driven, most car expenses will scale with mileage--especially in regions where rust isn't a major issue.

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#69

Post by x_throwaway80bf » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

epc wrote: post #52

x_throwaway80bf wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to make a throwaway as well just because I couldn't believe this comment. This is so utterly false. You're essentially claiming that the value of these services is all based on the innovation of the _hailing_ functionality, but there are countless apps that recreate this functionality _exactly_ whether for 'regular' taxis or separately licensed cars. If what you want is for a driver to come to your exact locati…

Consumers do not care about market externalities. Consumers do not care about the "cost based reasons". Yellow taxis were given a monopoly in NYC, the trade off was to accept all rides within the City. I lived in Brooklyn Heights and DUMBO for years, and quite routinely filed TLC complaints about drivers who refused to take a trip from even Lower Manhattan to DUMBO. I live in Manhattan now, and after a series of extr…

I agree generic consumer opinion won't really take into account the subsidy and unprofitability situation.

That is in fact my entire point: because generic consumer opinion or anecdotes don't qualify themselves based on the subsidy mechanism, it means generic consumer opinion or anecdotes are largely irrelevant for purposes of comparing with older taxi experiences or assessing a claimed value-add of a newer ride-hailing company.

In other words it doesn't add information to say that consumers like to be given better quality things for free.

> I need to get from one point to another in a safe, economical manner, and NYC's Yellow Taxi fleet is failing at that.

This seems like a red herring tacked on at the end, since Uber is not providing this either (because of the subsidy) and from an analytical perspective, it's irrelevant if average consumers are aware of this yet or not.

Re: Ride-hailing’s NYC dominance, and the impact of DeleteUber

#70

Post by Consultant32452 » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #14

jbob2000 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thankfully, Uber exists. Otherwise I'd have to download and register on all sorts of dinky city-specific apps any time I travel. Uber, for all of its faults, is the only one that works in every city I've traveled to.

I won't say it's vanishingly small but, relatively speaking, there aren't a huge number of people who have a problem with needing taxi services in a bunch of different cities. I travel about 100 days a year and I don't use these services very much and I don't think I've used Uber in a year or two. Worldwide availability of a brand just doesn't seem like a huge deal.

For me, it's more that I'd have no idea which app is the go-to taxi hailing app in a given city, or if one even exists. Like if you were going to visit Miami or Phoenix, would you know what to install besides Uber/Lyft? I wouldn't. Would the difference in quality/price be enough for you to spend time trying to figure it out?