Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug • Hacker News Board

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#91

Post by Singletoned » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #16

As someone on the spectrum, I don’t necessarily know if this is something I would want. My ASD is a big part of my personality; if these social “difficulties” (which really just mean I click with a different type of person) were “solved” I don’t know I would be the same person. Maybe this can offer some hope for others with more profound issues, but if you’ve found a way to function in society I’m not sure this will…

> if you’ve found a way to function in society I’m not sure this will be very attractive

I think this is the key point. Some of us are high-functioning and have found ways to operate in normal society, but many people are effectively crippled by their autism.

High-functioning autism has many beneficial side effects, and I would be loath to give them up. (For example, even just the fact that you see things differently to the people around can be really useful).

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#92

Post by Waterluvian » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 1:45 PM UTC

raducu wrote: post #79

Waterluvian wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have ADHD. Drugs like ritalin never "fixed" me. They basically allowed me an exchange: give up the charisma, personality, sociability, and appetite for 8 hours of being able to focus on something. I won't write an essay here but trust me that the two versions of me were day and night and both had significant benefits and challenges. I really struggled growing up. By the time I got to college I learned to use the dr…

How sporadically did you use ritalin? I think there's a risk of developing dopamine sensitization with infrequent use.

I'd say 3 or 4 times a week when I had classes. Then down to 0 times a week during co-op (working for an employer for 4 months).

Basically I selected to have it any time I had a major project to do or studying to do. It was absolutely glorious because I could go to classes, struggle through those a bit, get home, be social and have friends, then at about 9pm have some concerta and work on a project until 5am.

And maybe some of this sounds unhealthy but gosh did it ever work. I was a D student in high school and I managed to actually get into college, get two degrees, some significant awards, and a dream job after graduation. Without the opportunity to take Concerta when I wanted to, I all but guarantee I never would have gone to college.

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#93

Post by Waterluvian » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #62

knz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not that ADHD and ASD can be compared My understanding is that ASD and ADHD are often found together. I don't have enough familiarity with either to know where one begins and the other starts. Thanks for sharing your perspective, as the parent of a child just diagnosed with both conditions it's useful!

They are often confused for each other, but I tend to think of ADHD as “ASD lite”. They have some of the same issues with focus and attention (esp with hyperfocus) but kids with ASD tend to show a lot more sensitivity to sensory perception. Loud noises, bright lights or uncomfortable textures become emotional outbursts. Hyperfocus also tends to be more of a constant state with ASD and can lead to emotional distress.…

Very interesting. I never thought of that before. I certainly have no traits I'd consider on the autism spectrum. I just couldn't focus. Sit me quietly in 5th grade with a book and I'd read a page and have absorbed none of it because my brain wandered. I'd ask to go to the washroom just to get out of my desk and take the exciting trip to the washroom. Teachers eventually started asking if I had problems because I'd ask to go to the washroom 7 or 8 times a day.

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#94

Post by Singletoned » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 1:56 PM UTC

alanh wrote: post #10

glibgil wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what effect (if any) it would have super charisma

Eh, maybe… but I am reminded of the observation that if a single tweak could significantly enhance mental abilities, evolution would have probably given it to us already. I think Eliezer Yudkowsky has a longish piece to this effect (please forgive me if I am mis-remembering).

> if a single tweak could significantly enhance mental abilities, evolution would have probably given it to us already

Only if the tweak were beneficial to humanity as a whole would we all have it. We have developed many traits (such as selflessness) that are not in our best interest, but are in the best interest of our society.

It is quite plausible that evolution has found that tweak, but has only given it to a small minority of people, much as it has only given autism to a small minority of people.

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#95

Post by scardine » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 2:05 PM UTC

nugga wrote: post #85

scardine wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evolutionary pressure. Evolution is not an endless race to a superior form: mother nature is content with "good enough". Many modern sharks arrived 100 million years ago while modern humans are believed to be 70,000 years old. Why? Sharks were good enough. Humans are good enough now. Even weak people can survive just fine - even people with defective genes that would not survive enough to reproduce a cent…

Don't mistake the term evolution for selecting only intrinsically superior or ideal traits. What if humanity evolve to being dominantly near sighted because it is no longer a killer condition?

Does it even make sense to talk about "superior" or "ideal traits" in humans? People who like to talk about eugenics tend to end up wearing funny little hats and red arm bands (only half joking here). :-)

I used to care about the direction mankind is taking when I was younger. Now that I have way more years behind me than ahead - I will die soon and so will everyone I know - I could not care less. It may sound bitter but it is also liberating.

The last person to leave the planet please turn the lights off. Or don't. All I know is that I won't be here.

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#96

Post by loriverkutya » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #90

Couple things... This drug is naturally occurring and derived from a bacteria that is found in soil. Curious about a link between kids not playing in the dirt enough and autism. Second, this drug is used to treat lymphoma. Surely their have been kids with autism who also had lymphoma who were exposed to this drug. Would be useful to look and see if there are cases of autism being cured along with lymphoma treatment (…

> Curious about a link between kids not playing in the dirt enough and autism.

I'm sorry, but it seems, you don't really know much about autism. It is not a disease which you develop over the years, because you have been not played enough in the dirt.

You born with it.

Also, there is no known 'cure' for autism.

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#97

Post by mercer » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 7:06 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #62

knz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not that ADHD and ASD can be compared My understanding is that ASD and ADHD are often found together. I don't have enough familiarity with either to know where one begins and the other starts. Thanks for sharing your perspective, as the parent of a child just diagnosed with both conditions it's useful!

They are often confused for each other, but I tend to think of ADHD as “ASD lite”. They have some of the same issues with focus and attention (esp with hyperfocus) but kids with ASD tend to show a lot more sensitivity to sensory perception. Loud noises, bright lights or uncomfortable textures become emotional outbursts. Hyperfocus also tends to be more of a constant state with ASD and can lead to emotional distress.…

What I've been told is that people with ASD have a lot of the same issues with their executive functioning, and in many cases they can be diagnosed with both ADHD and ASD. Furthermore, it's quite common for siblings of those with ASD to suffer from ADD/OCD/etc.

However, one crucial difference is that the ADHD type of 'hyperfocus' is often in practice not as useful as it seems/feels, whereas the ASD kind of obsessive focus can be very productive and useful.

My personal experience, comparing myself to friends who have (severe) ADHD, is that a crucial difference is that I find it easier to see the bigger picture, assuming I'm not stressed (which is difficult to achieve), and can sort of channel my 'hyperfocus' in the right direction. These friends often struggle with this, and can easily spend hours or days doing something that in hindsight wasn't the right thing.

(interestingly, I feel that this 'problem' also has the upside in that they are often more artistic than I am, perhaps because a lot of what they do is not limited by a clear 'goal')

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#98

Post by mercer » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 7:06 PM UTC

tomcooks wrote: post #80

Waterluvian wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have ADHD. Drugs like ritalin never "fixed" me. They basically allowed me an exchange: give up the charisma, personality, sociability, and appetite for 8 hours of being able to focus on something. I won't write an essay here but trust me that the two versions of me were day and night and both had significant benefits and challenges. I really struggled growing up. By the time I got to college I learned to use the dr…

Side question for my research: Have you tried hiking for more than 10 consecutive days, possibly without carrying tech with you?

As someone with ASD and the plan to do just that, I like where I think you might be going with this...

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#99

Post by mercer » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 7:10 PM UTC

scardine wrote: post #58

titanix2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I read and maybe my own on-the-spectrum-traits the ability to focus intensely and for months on something. It really helps for studies.

This is a myth. Authism is a spectrum disorder and you don't meet the more disfunctional cases very often. A few percent are also savants but not everyone in the spectrum has some superpower. The severe cases are very crippling and place a heavy burden in the family (specially because the life expectancy is normal so you will not be always available to care for your autistic son).

It's not a myth. I'm convinced that, all else being equal, being able to obsessively focus on one thing will bear its fruits, even if it can be disastrous in areas like social life and personal health.

The idea that people on the spectrum are more likely to be savants is a myth (the opposite, that savants are more likely to be on the spectrum less so, from what I understand), but the person you responded to made no such claim.

Re: Autism's social deficits in animal model are reversed by an anti-cancer drug

#100

Post by exelius » Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 11:46 PM UTC

mercer wrote: post #97

exelius wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are often confused for each other, but I tend to think of ADHD as “ASD lite”. They have some of the same issues with focus and attention (esp with hyperfocus) but kids with ASD tend to show a lot more sensitivity to sensory perception. Loud noises, bright lights or uncomfortable textures become emotional outbursts. Hyperfocus also tends to be more of a constant state with ASD and can lead to emotional distress.…

What I've been told is that people with ASD have a lot of the same issues with their executive functioning, and in many cases they can be diagnosed with both ADHD and ASD. Furthermore, it's quite common for siblings of those with ASD to suffer from ADD/OCD/etc. However, one crucial difference is that the ADHD type of 'hyperfocus' is often in practice not as useful as it seems/feels, whereas the ASD kind of obsessive…

I actually have had the opposite experience with hyperfocus — if I get sidetracked into a subject I personally find very interesting but know others don’t, I have a harder time letting go of it. I know what the right thing to do is; my brain just won’t let go of the thing it’s focused on and I get emotionally agitated when I force myself to switch.

For me at least, the core component of my ASD is the complicated link between sensory input and my emotional state. The focus and attention problems are more that I have to really concentrate to understand the meaning of everything going on around me, and that gets exhausting. I get fatigued of being “on”, so my attention lapses.