Earlier quoted context omitted.
Haha if you pay for SA it only suggests that you are a sucker who paid 10 bucks to post on SA for a couple of days before getting banned. They are very ban happy there.
I have had an SA account for years and never been banned. I don't appreciate being called a sucker and I think the price is fair for what I get. When I use Facebook I am the product, not the customer. This means the platform is optimized to put my eyeballs on advertisements or provide data about me to marketers. It is not optimized to provide high quality conversation.
Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
401–410 of 757 posts
Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
#402Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, yes that's the obvious (and cynical) assumption. It's definitely true as a real pseudo-economic force on the internet and media generally, but let's not just assume reddit are following that "interest" blindly. If you think reddit doesn't have those values, I guess we disagree. I don't see any way of coming to that conclusion apart from fundamentalism, it's either absolute or it's bullshit.
Let's see - Vanity Fair, Wired, GQ - there seems good reason to think that Conde Nast are willing to compromise and go with the click bait, a lot. https://www.wired.com/story/bad-actors-are-using-social-medi... .. is the first entry Reddit, is it in the list, nope. I think Conde Nast are prepared to stoop pretty low in the search for dollars before integrity.
That said, it certainly seems to me like if not as an explicit business decision, Conde Nast certainly has no problem with their properties sensationalizing their media for views/clicks/etc
Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
#403The only way to detoxify the internet, is to get rid of the "social" aspect. Starting with gasp comments. My online experience has been that much better, since adding comment blockers to my browser.
I've been kicking a design around in my head for the past few weeks which retains most of the outward form of something like Reddit, on the grounds that it has proved to be a model that can attract users, but redefines the upvote and downvote process such that an upvote now means "I want to see more of this poster's comments, and transitively (and weaker as the links go out) what that user sees" and a downvote now me…
I think you can avoid a lot of the success-as-worst-case issues by designing this as a decentralized protocol.
Each 'user' is a cryptographic identity: all votes or posts are authenticated by the users signature. When you follow/upvote a user, your clientside software increases that user's weight in your feed. All content on the system is content addressable by hash. All 'likes' are signatures on a content hash.
When you connect to another node, you request all recent signatures for people you follow/have upvoted. Clientside software can use various schemes for weighting - totally up to each individual user (ex. how many upvotes is equivalent to following someone? how much time decay in scoring do you want? how deep do you want to traverse followed users' social graph? etc.). Weights for each followed user are multiplied by that user's score for that piece of content, and is then summed across all followed users to create an ordinal list of content - a 'feed'. In this way, if multiple users you follow all like the same piece of content, it would probably be scored higher than a piece of content liked by only one user you follow - so long as your weighting for all those users is equal.
Ideally:
- Nodes should be able to support multiple users, and host a webserver that provides access to the network to those who are not technically sophisticated enough to host it themselves.
- User data should be portable and transferrable to different nodes.
- Nodes could implement their own email+forgotpassword userflow to abstract the crypto complexity away from laypeople, though this complicates account transfers and risks account theft by unscrupulous nodes.
Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
#404Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
#405Earlier quoted context omitted.
On top of downvotes, you can say very toxic / abusive / condescending things and get away with it if you share the "correct" viewpoint, but unpopular views have to be exceptionally polite to avoid biased moderation. You can't bluntly refute or critique a questionable (but popular) argument without being accused of lacking civility...
> if you share the "correct" viewpoint, but unpopular views have to be exceptionally polite to avoid biased moderation Where HN has been falling short (lately, in my observation) is where discussions about the ethics of certain business models get lost via the "buried" option or killed off completely. You cannot come to HN to discuss the potentially-negative ecological or economical impact of a YC company. The voting…
- discussing the risks of psychoactive drugs.
- pointing out flaws in overhyped press releases about the next wonder drug/treatment
I guess you're right that you can avoid getting downvoted by being exceptionally polite and spending about 15 minutes crafting a response saying "crap science, uncontrolled trial, possible placebo effect", but sometimes I just don't have the time and energy for that. I'd prefer it if people here didn't automatically assume I'm full of shit when I point out a flaw in an argument without writing my response absolutely perfectly the first time.
Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
#406This problem is easy to solve: give users the tools to do their own filtering. But services like to pretend that it's a hard problem because they don't want to actually cede that control to their users. The whole point of controlling the communication networks is to control what and how people say and hear.
That sounds great for people who are already invested in Reddit but terrible for newcomers who don't want to do a bunch of work to get Reddit into a usable state.
Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
#407Not one word about the HUGE Antifa presence or doxing by left wing conspirators and agitators. This is exactly why I don't read the New Yorker. I would consider reading it if they gave light to both sides of this issue. But they don't. This is not journalism. Edit: u/spez was caught editing user comments on certain subs he publicly disagrees with. How he's still CEO is beyond me. At least he admits he's a troll. Edit…
Downvotes but no replies. School yard bully techniques. Triggered you are.
Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
#408Earlier quoted context omitted.
"We really just need better public education" I agree 100% as long as you put me, or people of my worldview, in charge of the curriculum and personnel.
Yes. In today's age of near-universal literacy, "uneducated" is just a euphemism for views disliked by the the side in control of the education apparatus. While thought-policing media, schools, churches, and any other possible venue of "indoctrination" may "work" to a superficial extent, it mostly just completely destroys the credibility of your authority and leads to stunning implosion and destabilization. See: the…
Education teaches critical thinking, science, history, numerical literacy, and the general skill and toolset to differentiate fact from falsehood, rhetoric, and manipulation-- regardless of where it is coming from.
Education is an immune system for the mind. Generally it is the manipulators who don't like an educated populace, because it decreases their power. They tend to be the ones labeling education as "indoctrination".
Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
#409So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…
We haven't really tried "real identities". We've come close. Real identities would require verification, which sites like FB only do after the fact. I fear that a huge repercussion of the election issues is that we will get there. A real ID may be required for you to post comments in all websites. And i'm not sure how I feel about that. Reality is that it would drastically reduce comment trolling, if your real identi…
I honestly don't think this will ever be the case. Because there is a lot of profit from an unmoderated comment store. Also because it'd be monumentally hard to actually make all sites compliant.
Re: Reddit and the Struggle to Detoxify the Internet
#410So we've tried: - Real identities (Facebook comments) - Voting and self moderation (Reddit, HN, etc.) - Strong moderation (Reddit, HN) They all result in toxic comments, trolling, an echo chamber,or worse, a complete lack of participation. There's no real solution to this problem. However, if you create consequences or a cost to commenting you'd eliminate toxic comments and trolling at the cost of less participation…
I disagree, There IS a solution, but no one likes it.
Segway: Football aka Soccer had a problem back in the day. Games became (more?) boring because teams would go up a goal, and just play "kick the ball to the goalie". Goalie'd pick up the ball, bounce it, pass to a player who kicked it back to the goalie, rinse and repeat. Then they instituted the back pass rule - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-pass_rule - where basically, pass back to the keeper and he can't use his hands, only his feet. A generation of goalies had to learn to play with the ball at their feet, and the bit people enjoyed happened more often.
Rugby Union has had a similar evolution, although more intense. Rugby's goal is to have a game that can be played by people of all shapes and sizes, and they mostly succeed. George Gregan was a great player at 5'9", and most second rowers are over 200cm/6'7". But rugby always gets boring, because the coaches start to playing boring rugby (lot of kicks, lots of positional play, less running). So rugby, every few years, overhauls the rules. For a year or two, the game is exciting again, IMHO the best sport in the world, then it is boring all over again as coaches play safe. We then get another overhaul.
I think the Soccer back-pass rule and rugby's ever-changing-rules are models of how changes in rules can dramatically affect the quality of an activity, I don't think they are doable for online sites at scale. Instead, the only solution I can see working is to constantly change to new platforms.
I started in SEO in circa 2001, and there were heaps of forums run on phpBB et al. They had all recently started, so they were figuring themselves out. The forums all interacted, but they all had their own feel and their own rules. Over a few years, they developed "personalities", and everyone could find a place that suited them. This "personality" then morphed into a kind of group think, and the forums grew into echo chambers where the rules where strictly enforced to keep out the others, and each forum became hostile to all the evil others, and they devolved from fun places to hang out to the same old same old.
SM then came along, with sites like FB, Digg and reddit being born, and this process started again. A new place, no real rules yet, and it was the same exciting process of discovery. Over time, the bad parts set in, and these places became stale echo chambers filled with all the bad bits everyone talks about.
That's why I think the only real solution is to tear it all down and start afresh, because this process has repeated several times now. I think that partly explains why SnapChat and the other platforms exist, and why, IMHO, SnapChat et al will grow to a point then fail to grow anymore, as the "freshness" fades, and all the nastiness intrudes. Unless sites can figure out a way to change this process, which after almost 2 decades of this process is either unlikely (pessimistic), or it is too soon to tell (optimistic).
TL;DR when a platform gets entrenched, it starts to exhibit more nasty traits, and a new platform started afresh is the only solution.